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A theory: Arda = Earth?


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#21 Devon

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:16 AM

Like I said, you can see stuff anywhere if you try...

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#22 Puppeteer

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 11:29 AM

Even though Christianity did not destroy Rome...

#23 Xingdao Fan

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 01:50 PM

That's interesting. What is the Iberian Peninsula anyway?

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#24 Dalf32

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 03:44 PM

its like spain and portugal and all of the countries in the far southwest of europe.

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#25 mike_

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 04:59 PM

actually in all of tolkiens writings he intended to create a truly english prehistoric history with tol edressa the lonely isle being brough from itsplace outside of space and time back into the world to give a home to the remaining noldo that had been enslaved by melko (paraphrased from the book of lost tales 1) tol edressa would later become england where the descendants of the gnomes (another name for noldor) and heros of men desceted from earendil would grow. in this early draft it would seem that the noldor had lost the immortality or at least there children at some point did with the gnomes becoming but a legend. throughout his life his story was constantly changing an example being that in the fall of gondolin (origional) there were over 21 confirmed dead balrogs yet he would later write that in truth there were only ever 7 to begin with. in these early writings you see that it is the son of ingwe who brings tol edressa back into the real world to reclaim his kin and the elves of the noldor were actually enslaved by melkor instead of rising up to fight him. in later drafts ingwe would become a high king of the vanyar and thus his son would have no true kin in middle earth in the first place. to end this drabbles when tolkiens world was first created in 1917 or so he was writing an english prehistory which had many allegories to the real world because he was writing a myth about the real world. however it later became a pure fnatasy world that he revised almost constantly until the time of his death


Holy...that post is six sentences.

EDIT: Technically, that is.

Edited by mike_, 19 July 2008 - 07:09 PM.


#26 Puppeteer

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 07:02 PM

I try by navigate by full stops. Couldn't in that case...

Edited by Puppeteer, 19 July 2008 - 07:03 PM.


#27 Srg Insane

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 09:03 PM

Tolkein based Arda on not our world but the world of myth and religion, Christianity had a large part with events and some landmasses Numenor=pre flood Humans and world, he based middle-earth on a none roman Europe. Norse religion also had a big influence on where Rohan was. The Old Jewish Kingdoms of Judah and Isreal had the same relationship as Gondor and Arnor, Isreal fell as well as Arnor well Gondor repersented Judah, anyways thats my point.

#28 Puppeteer

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 09:30 PM

The whole of the Lord of the Rings is based on Norse mythology...

#29 Annullus The Grey

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 10:45 PM

what i was trying to say before i devolved into inane babble was that in the begining tolkien was trying to create an english prehistory, because he couldnt stand the fact that english myth english legend didnt truly exist. the storyn of king arthur and his nights is french, almost every major english myth wasnt english.

in the book of lost tales he equates tol eddressa into england and middle earth becomes western europe over the passage of time, with the gnomes having brough tol eddressa back into the world in an effort to free there kin enslaved by melkor.

it was in the 1930s that tolkiens world as we know it began to take form. alot of the complex myth structure was stripped away and all real world counterparts were denied, it was with the publishing of the hobbit that tolkiens english prehistory turned from his attempt at writing a myth, to the founding of the high fantasy genre of fiction

it can be said that tolkien was inspired by beowulf and other ancient legends however the lord of the rings is uniquely english, it introduces many new concepts to society and has arguably shaped modern fiction.

you cannot just say it is based on norse mythology, indeed it borrows portions but alot more of it is based on the survive rhymes and lyrics that had been the few survivors of englands cultural destruction a thousand years earlier

Edited by Annullus The Grey, 20 July 2008 - 10:49 PM.

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#30 Xingdao Fan

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 08:58 AM

its like spain and portugal and all of the countries in the far southwest of europe.

I was asking what it represented in Middle-Earth :p

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#31 Vithar-133

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:28 AM

Probably the areas like Mithlond, Harlindon, etc. et.c or Minhiriath and Enedwaith.. I think that's what you meant, anyways.

Edited by Vithar Megilaglar, 21 July 2008 - 10:29 AM.

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#32 Puppeteer

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:30 PM

Both Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings" and Wagners "Ring of Nibelung" originates in Norse mythology

#33 Xingdao Fan

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:36 PM

Puppeteer, we heard it the first time. But this theory is interesting.

I think Mithlond and Lindon are Norway. The Iberian Peninsula is far too southern ;P it might be west of Dol Amroth, I believe there was an Elven harbor there sometime in the LotR history. Makes sense, the Portuguese are good sailors.

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#34 Annullus The Grey

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 07:11 PM

puppeteer im not sure on wagner however i can assure you tolkiens writings take more heavily from archaic english myths and tales than they do from norse mythology and even more from his own mind
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#35 Vithar-133

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 11:43 PM

@Annullus the grey: Tolkein based most of LotR off of the Old Norse Myths. There are various references to the Norse roll of Dwarves, Gimili being one of them as well as Gandalf. Most of the Hobbit came from a Norse poem. Most of the Valar are related to some Norse God or another.

@Xingdao Fan: You may well be right, but, rather than an elven port, maybe Umbar-ish area. It was a port of the Black Numenoreans.

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#36 Srg Insane

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 05:07 AM

However, Christainity did have a large impact on tolkiens writing, you can also find Egyption myth as well aa Greek, you can Norse had a big impact, but Tolkein had to use different culture myths to create new civilizations or languages.

#37 Annullus The Grey

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:37 AM

oh i was under the impresion he used as much of the survivng english myths then borrowed this and that, i was aware that he was influenced by norse mythology however he had stated in letters i think it was that his initial goal was to try and create a uniquely english prehistoric legend so that has influenced my beliefs quit heavly
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#38 Vithar-133

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 05:15 PM

Yeah, he wanted to create a unique english myth uninfluenced by christianity and other english legends like King Arthur.


For the sake of saying it, how many of you guys know that Tokein hated Shakespeare?

And he also sadi something about drama not being a form of writing.

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#39 tomy

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 08:35 PM

For the sake of saying it, how many of you guys know that Tokein hated Shakespeare?

And he also sadi something about drama not being a form of writing.


really? I didn't know that! :)
where did you get it from?

Edited by tomy, 23 July 2008 - 08:36 PM.

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#40 Devon

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:57 PM

...

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