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Russia begins to reassert its influence in the old Soviet states.


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#1 Vortigern

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 07:39 AM

Russia and Georgia were on the brink of war last night after Moscow responded to a Georgian offensive in the breakaway republic of South Ossetia by sending tanks, troops and war-planes across the border.

More than a thousand civilians were reported to have been killed and large parts of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, were reduced to ruins as a conflict with potentially global repercussions erupted after months of rising tension. Georgia announced last night that it was withdrawing half of its 2,000 troops from Iraq as it ordered an all-out military mobilisation.

The country is the West’s strongest ally in the region, one of the staunchest supporters of America’s War on Terror and a vital conduit for Western oil and gas supplies from Central Asia.

“We have Russian tanks moving in. We have continuous Russian bombardment,” President Saakashvili declared as he appealed for international support. “Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory.”

The United States, the European Union and Nato appealed for an immediate end to the fighting and for the crisis to be resolved through direct talks. President Bush pledged US support for Georgia’s territorial integrity after holding talks with Vladimir Putin, the Russian Prime Minister, in Beijing where both men were attending the opening of the Olympic Games.

After a week of skirmishes with separatist militias, Georgian forces began an offensive on Thursday night to seize control of South Ossetia, which broke away in a civil war in the early 1990s and has since sought closer links with Russia.

Russia responded by sending units of its 58th Army, including tanks and hundreds of troops, into South Ossetia while its aircraft reportedly attacked military targets in Georgia itself.

Eduard Kokoity, the leader of South Ossetia’s self-styled government, said that more than 1,400 people had died in the Georgian offensive. The International Committee of the Red Cross said that hospitals were overflowing. Reporters saw trucks bringing wounded Georgian soldiers out of South Ossetia to a military hospital in Gori.

Russia said that at least ten of its peacekeepers in South Ossetia had been killed and another thirty wounded. Georgia claimed to have shot down five Russian jets. Mr Saakashvili told CNN: “It’s like the attack into Afghanistan in 1979. It’s like Czechoslovakia when the Soviet tanks rolled in. If they get away with this in Georgia, the world will be in trouble.”

South Ossetia is little bigger than Luxembourg. but an all-out war would have global repercussions and could leave Russia with a stranglehold on Central Asia’s vast oil and gas supplies. Analysts said that Georgia’s bid for Nato membership, to be discussed at a summit in December, would be complicated greatly by continuing hostilities with Russia. If an increasingly assertive Kremlin succeeds in imposing its will on its tiny neighbour, it might be encouraged to do the same elsewhere in the former Soviet Union.


Original story: Times Online
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#2 Puppeteer

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 01:30 PM

Russian jets attack Georgian town
Another example of Russia's aggression towards Georgia.

#3 Verrückt

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 02:14 PM

Expecting another epic fail by Russia...
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#4 Soul

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 12:38 AM

News, News, News, News, and More news.

Oh and a Wiki article.

Edit: Also everyone seems to be jumping on the anti-Russia bandwagon in this topic so far without hearing both sides.

Edit2: As for myself, I'm neutral on the situation.

Edited by Soul, 10 August 2008 - 01:02 AM.

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#5 Verrückt

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 02:33 AM

Look at Russia's past, not exactly "Masters of Strategy" more like GO GO GO! Two divisions didn't work? Try Four! Four didn't work, try them all!

Edited by Verrückt, 10 August 2008 - 02:33 AM.

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#6 Soul

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 07:02 AM

This is interesting.
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#7 Puppeteer

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 10:59 AM

I read the articles in the Telegraph today, one of the most reliable newspapers, except perhaps for the other broadsheet The Guardian, and Russia doesn't try to justify its actions properly at all.

#8 duke_Qa

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 08:00 PM

Basically, 200 millions vs 4.5 millions. its asymmetric and the Georgians have asked for a ceasefire twice already, while the Russians are saying "we can't hear you because the bombs are so loud!"

Even if Georgia was the first ones to initiate this conflict, it has been obvious for several months that Russia has been bending over backwards in the hopes of provoking an attack that they could use as an excuse.

Personally i don't know what to expect from this situation. its not likely that Russia will try to take over more areas than south Ossetia and Abkazia. It is however unlikely that those parts will ever return to Georgia now that the Russians have practically taken both over. It will be interesting to see what western countries will do on the subject if Russia keeps this up.

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#9 Soul

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 08:30 PM

I think Western countries should stay out of this, talking is all any of them can do.
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#10 Verrückt

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 11:54 PM

Sanctions: Use them.
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#11 MSpencer

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 07:48 AM

This hasn't got anything to do with strategy. Any half-decent Russian theater commander would realize that one small group of air superiority fighters and two motor rifle divisions (even those ill-equipped in the south) would certainly be able to beat back the Georgian contingent deployed to the region.

The Georgians have always opposed Ossetian independence. This has been going on since the USSR dissolved; Russia doesn't really care, Georgia wants the territory, and the Ossetians want to assert themselves independently. The solution to this is not invading them, as the Georgians have done. The situation is far more simple than Bosnia, the Georgians have no reason to be there, it's simply a landgrab which has been coming for fifteen years.
If you want to defend the Georgians, get your facts straight before you call me a Russian supporting fascist. Nobody's right, but the Georgians are less right.
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#12 Dexter

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 03:13 PM

It seems that everyone here was quick to take anti-Russian positions without taking care to know all the facts. I consider myself responsible to fill the gap. Here i try to explain things from the "other side". If you do not want to hear any of it (which may be very likely, considering what i saw in this thread), please, ignore my post.

In general many western media sources have more Georgian-oriented positions, despite the fact that 80% of Georgian journalists are members of agitation brigades, rather than independent observers. But even thus i think that you are not being honest with yourselves, since, despite some unfortunate examples, most western newspapers do not distort facts, the difference between them and Russian-ones is largely in tone.
Speaking of this article in particular, it doesn't say all the truth. For example it says that more than thousand people have been killed, while it doesn't say that those people were civilians, they were killed in the first day of conflict, killed by Georgian military, most of them had Russian citizenship, and that was the reason why did Russian army had to invade Ossetia.
As you can see, it is not a prepared attempt to annex anything, it's a matter of prestige. How do you think US would behave if, say, Mexican military would start to deliberately kill Americans? Russia didn't actually make any choices - response was automatic.
This is not the only thing being kept from the public eyes. Saakashvilli several times claimed to give seizefire orders, while today Georgian military opened fire at humanitarian convoy. Should russian forces withdraw from Ossetia - there would start a slaughter of such scale that things in Serbia and Iraq will simply fade in its shadow.
Also. Article says that "If an increasingly assertive Kremlin succeeds in imposing its will on its tiny neighbour, it might be encouraged to do the same elsewhere in the former Soviet Union". This however does not have anything to do with the actual situation. Also, such passage should not exist in the article of a trusted newsteller. News that contain opinions served as facts instead of actual facts should be considered propaganda.
As for the Ossetins -it is much more simple. I believe that nation has the right to chose whether to belong to the certain state, or not. Especially it matters when nation does not belong to the given state's major nationality, and if this state has nationalist tendencies.
USA holds politics of double standards as it supports independence when it is suitable for USA, and doesn't when it's not. Nobody actually cares about people of breakaway republics.

PS. You should probably see this website, it does have a common sense:
http://hrw.org/engli...georgi19577.htm
Try to count violations of humanitarian laws. My result was the following: Russia - one serious violation, Georgia - two serious violations and three war crimes.

#13 Verrückt

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 06:15 PM

Perhaps Georgia did this to show how dimwitted Russia is, Narrow sighted if you will. If Russia Messes up and goes ape shit, Russia will be put out of business, this time for good.
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#14 Dexter

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 06:41 PM

Yeah, like someone's gonna do this.

I actually can't believe that i saw this. Did it to show? You kill 1600 civilians to show something? Is this how western countries expose their enemy's true face?

I'll tell you what happen. Country A, run by the government that either was not elected properly, or claimed the power, has totally lost it, and on a nationalist whim started to eliminate certain national minority within it's borders. Country B, being both outraged with A actions and having it's own selfish interests in the region conducts a military operation against A. It happens from time to time. All the same. The only difference is that when A is Iraq, and B is USA it is called justice, but when A is Georgia, and B is Russia it is called aggression.

This is odd. Do i even need to tell you anything? You obviously belong to the people i mentioned in the beginning of my previous post.

By the way, to all those who care to know at least something about the subject they discuss i would recommend Reuters. This far the agency showed quite sober impartiality and satisfactory lack of emotion.

Edited by Dexter, 11 August 2008 - 07:02 PM.


#15 Ash

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 07:52 PM

In truth it seems that Georgian troops have been killing ethnic Russians in South Ossetia. I'm hardly surprised Russia decided to lean a little hard. On the one hand, the land is officially Georgian territory, on the other, most of those killed are, officially, at least dual citizens with Russia and Georgia.

It's a catch-22. Whatever Russia does, it will be thought badly of. If it stayed out, those ethnic Russians woulda been killed. If it moves in, as it has done, people will think Russia is acting all aggressive, when in fact it was Georgia who fired the first shots, shelling two towns and shooting down 2 Russian jets (depending whether you believe the numbers the Georgians put forward to be accurate). It's only understandable that Russia would smash the Georgian military. At least they're targeting military installations, not civilians. Their usual track record for military action is less than spectacular, if their counterterrorist ops are anything to go by...

Much as I do not normally approve of Russian foreign and military policy, I think it made the right call this time. The US is flying Georgian troops out of Iraq to help. I wonder why that might be, given that there's an oil pipeline running through Georgia. I wonder, would they even give a shit if said pipeline were not there?

The best case scenario here is that the UN actually does something useful for a change and sends in a big peacekeeper force to keep the two sides apart. Of course, even if the glacier-like march of UN resolution resolves to actually do that, the force they send will be completely ineffectual.

#16 Phil

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 08:09 PM

I'm not sure what my exact position should be. Seems to me like yet another conflict with only two evil sides. It's just that one has clearly started it, so I'm probably in favour of Russia this time.

The US is flying Georgian troops out of Iraq to help. I wonder why that might be, given that there's an oil pipeline running through Georgia. I wonder, would they even give a shit if said pipeline were not there?

I'll take a wild guess and say "no".

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#17 Casen

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 09:23 PM

Okay, you know what, I am getting sick and tired of this. It's always oil conspiracy theories with us, always. There is no proof.

Using that logic we invaded Iraq because we were short on sand or some shit. It's retarded. Oh, I get it, we're only helping Georgia for oil. How does anyone know? This is just bullshit people are pulling out of their ass. HOW DOES OIL FIT INTO EVERYTHING?!

And how come we never have allies, only "puppets". Okay, the USA has no allies, just puppets, why? We can't be friends with countries, only they can be puppets of us? Yeah, biased one-sided logic.

Frankly, I'm neutral on this war, but I just knew the day it started somehow the USA would be blamed for this. We're blamed for everything that happens in the world that's negative.

If an asteroid was hurtling towards the earth capable of destroying it, and we build a giant laser to shoot it down, people would somehow twist it around to make it a bad thing, say it was done for oil, or claim it was a hoax. This shit pisses me off so fucking much.

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Edited by Kacen, 11 August 2008 - 09:27 PM.


#18 partyzanPaulZy

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 09:40 PM

Why 30 000 South Osetians ran to Russia, but almost nobody to Georgia? Georgian forces have been bombing everybody in South Osetia, even their own nation!
One Georgian mother from South Osetia said to camera: "How should I explain to children that our own soldiers are bombing us?!"
This shot was from Czech TV, public TV which HAS TO BE OBJECTIVE and it really is when I compare Georgian=western news and Russian news.
I think Russia should end this quickly (Blitzkrieg). :crazed:

The best case scenario here is that the UN actually does something useful for a change and sends in a big peacekeeper force to keep the two sides apart. Of course, even if the glacier-like march of UN resolution resolves to actually do that, the force they send will be completely ineffectual.

I think this would be THE WORST SCENARIO because it would be one step from the Third World War! :p
If NATO left Serbs to solve Kosovo after Miloshevic has been catched, it would be better than independent Kosovo with nationalistic and sometimes fundamentalistic Albanians, this case I think Russia should help South Osetia and Abkchazia.
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#19 Casen

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 10:25 PM

The United Nations is a corrupt institution. They support Islamic terrorists against Israel. I don't trust them to do anything.

#20 Casen

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 11:25 PM

we beat france at swimming in the olympics I bet it was a hoax cus of conspirsy goverment we faked winning the olympikz to beet frans in the watur rase amirite?




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