21 replies to this topic

[Casojin]

After playing several multiplayer games with my ZH gang (which has played over a hundred matches of Contra 0.05), I think balance issue has become a big concern for Contra 0.06 and I would like to suggest something. I would like to hear comment from all of you too. If it is possible, I really want Creator to solve this balance issue (if you need my help editing it, I'm happy to help you, Creator) and release a patch.

First of all, GLA supply collecting should be improved. The animation is good, but the drop-off area should be returned to what it is in 0.05 (entire area around the supply vehicle). GLA is especiall weak versus all USA and China factions. With weak economic, GLA can barely withstand early rush from human player. It's worse against USA Superweapon. Dozer drop can block GLA from reaching the supply in 1v1 and busted them later on easily (China and USA can neutralize the blockade with artilleries since they're tougher than GLA's ones so they can exchange fire with firebase without losing too much money on it). If you want to retain the small drop-off area, the black market build time should be reduced.

Secondly, USA supweapon has become more powerful in this patch, which is good. However, I think dozer drop should provide only one dozer not two. Early dozer drop rush can be deadly especially for GLA. A single dozer building a defend structure can be dealt with not too hard, but two at once is almost impossible for GLA with very weak early economic.

Furthermore, aircraft bomb (for Aurora and AF superunit) should be a bit more effective against buildings. Other than that would be only bug fixing issues.

Edited by Casojin, 08 September 2008 - 03:44 AM.

[Legend_28]

and make Pegaguess (sp?) targetable..

[Soul]

There are a lot more bugs then the ones you mentioned that need to be fixed

[Casojin]

I was mentioning the balance issues not bugs since there is already a bug report topic. I'm not sure how many people play Contra multiplayer oftenly, but I would like to point out from my direct experience. Many improvements in 0.06 has cleared the balance issue in 0.05, however. there are also new issues as well and I just want Contra to be better for multiplayer game when I start this topic.

Good balancing issues in 0.06 (as an example)
- GLA def. site has less health, which prevents a supreme GLA turtler from expanding def. site from his base to enemy base and concentrate on units and tactics instead.
- No def. structure for Nuke general as he is very strong in offense already.
- Revamp of Superweapon general tech tree; this has improved her survivability in battle especially against GLA.
- Libra rotatable turret
- Chinese artilleries (Howitzer and Inferno cannon) have to deploy gun before firing, allowing the enemy to retaliate before they could get away and make player plan harder when using them. These artilleries have good uprgade already (Reactive shell +15% range), so they need something to counter them.
- Easy cleanable toxin cloud; the toxin and acid clouds were very hard to clean in 0.05 and has to be controlled manually which was not enough in chaotic battle and those who faced this always lost an entire army in these clouds. In 0.06, the clouds can be clean automatically by biohazard tech or ambulance, which is very good.
- etc...There are more that I didn't mention.

[Madin]

At the highest level of play (a level I'm nowhere near), providing $2000 worth of dozers for 'free' and quicker than said dozers can be built, is stupid. My problem is not with the possible rush, its that the rush failing does not cost the super weapon general a thing.

[Casojin]

At the highest level of play (a level I'm nowhere near), providing $2000 worth of dozers for 'free' and quicker than said dozers can be built, is stupid. My problem is not with the possible rush, its that the rush failing does not cost the super weapon general a thing.

Anyway, as I said, dozer drop is good addition with exception that it needs to be adjusted (a dozer per drop). From my 0.05 experience, the Superweapon general can barely stand alone in 1v1 rushing match and it's a guarantee lose against GLA stealth or demo (since every defense can't hold their units off cost-effectively).

[Casojin]

As I stated earlier, there are many issues which are good in 0.06, especially GLA defense sites and chemical clouds. However, there are a lot of bugs too. Anyway, I do like the new version.

Whats also very annoying: The AI is not nearly as good as in 005,
There is no chance for any number of PC enemies to even scratch my defenses.
That is weird, since 005 had some badass computer assaults :-)

This is also correct. The AI is much easier.

[Legend_28]

No, just build stealth detectors?

[Soul]

No, just build stealth detectors?

Did and they died? Anyway Stealth doesn't fit in with Toxin....Infact, Toxin has more Stealth units than Kassad himself...

- Zhen

I agree, it makes no sense for Toxin gen's rebels to start stealth or to have stealth at all :/. IMHO it makes them very overpowered.

[Madin]

No, just build stealth detectors?

Did and they died? Anyway Stealth doesn't fit in with Toxin....Infact, Toxin has more Stealth units than Kassad himself...

- Zhen

I agree, it makes no sense for Toxin gen's rebels to start stealth or to have stealth at all :/. IMHO it makes them very overpowered.

Indeed. Half of the generals can not build stealth detectors before a toxin rush arrives anyhow.
The explosives general is now pointlessly frustrating to play against, workers that can lay mine fields
They can slow the game to a damn crawl on most maps.
Super weapon generals emp mines deploy instantly

[Casojin]

Play against Toxin and Insane/hardest AI level and report back to me.

Anyway Toxin Stealth Rebels HAVE to go...I lost around 100 Laser Defenders to 4 of them :S

You're using wrong units against them. Contra units are more type-countering based. AT units can barely scratch infantry and so on. Using Laser Defenders which are AT units against Toxin Rebels is a very bad idea (worse than using Rangers against them which is bad enough).

In my first game of Laser vs Toxin, I crush the enemy even before I got rank 3 (I used combination of Laser tanks and microwave tanks with Libra as actual attackers behind their line and using sentry drone as scout).

Toxin Rebel rush can be dealt with not too hard. If you're USA, simply use security system and retreat your dozer back to it. The security system is highly effective against early infantry rush (with exception of early mass infantry rush of General Fai). For chinese, if you haven't got any gattling tank out in time, crush them with dozer or use minefield (protect the supply first). Infantries in Contra walk much slower than normal ZH, so it'll take quite a while before they arrive. Fast moving units are also a good idea against Toxin Rebel rush. At last, as GLA simply use any vehicle (Command truck, Supply stash, or in the worst case RADAR van) to squish them. So far that I can see, Toxin general doesn't have heavy unit during early stage of each match. So, stealthed toxin rebel is one thing that might be good for them not overpowered.

About Kassad, I still wonder why his heavy vehicles (Scorpion, toxin tractor...) can't be GPS-scrambled. Balance issue?

[Casojin]

This was early game, I was just testing the new release and I was using Laser Defenders. The problem is that Toxin Rebels even own tanks... :/ Not saying this is a bad mod(It's actually a great mod) but the Stealth Toxin Rebels just puts me off... :/

What tank did you use? Even a humvee can crush them easily.

[fieldwings]

Whats also very annoying: The AI is not nearly as good as in 005,
There is no chance for any number of PC enemies to even scratch my defenses.
That is weird, since 005 had some badass computer assaults :-)

Interesting. The AI is generally more clever than in 005, and I'm elated that the Tank General no longer spams tanks and keeps them inside his base. However there are 2 disturbing problems; the Flame General AI doesn't build their Scientific Laboratory, which means they don't ever get Thermobarics and thus are only half a challenge IMO. Second, it's taken the Laser General FOREVER to mount any sort of assault against me. They build Power Plants, Barracks, and Supply Centers, maybe a War Factory or 2, then they mass Dozers and don't do jack for... I actually don't know. But after a LONG time and forcing them to level up to rank 5, they finally started attacking.

[Casojin]

AI can do anything human can't do as long as it is in their scripts.

[Soul]

The Black Lotus capturing a building while moving is an old ZH bug that I believe EA fixed, not sure why it's back.

Edited by Soul, 23 September 2008 - 01:45 AM.