33 replies to this topic

[LadyRhiea]

I'm always curious how the fans of Tolkien's work would respond to having women fighting along men in Lord of the Rings. I just thought of it because when Peter Jackson gave Arwen more active roles in the movies, there were quite negative views on it, the whole warrior princess bizniz. And since I've always wanted additional heroines in BFME, I wanna see what other people has to say.

[Shikari]

I quite liked the fact that there were relatively few women mentioned, as it really highlighted Eowyn's bravery fighting when she was not expected to. Arwen I liked less, although I wouldn't say she was made out as a warrior princess, her role (as glorfindel) was heroic in a different way as she didn't actually physically fight in the films.
Adding more female heroes slightly devalues this in my opinion, but I'm not altogether against it.

[Ed Of The 3rd Kind]

I have to agree there, Tolkien wrote in the view of a medieval climate, whereby the attitude for a woman to go out and fight would have been utterly appaling, the fact Eowyn did, not only breaks the mold as such but also adds flavour to the story. Arwens character was a very weak one in the books compared to the movies where we get a further glimpse into her, we also get the view that she inspired Aragorn to fight which in itself could be describe as being as hero, under the archaic belief "behind every good man stands a strong woman"

Edited by Ed Of The 3rd Kind, 21 September 2008 - 05:58 PM.

[{IP} Aridor]

Tolkien still believed in chivalry. For a woman to fight was a terrible thing to have to happen. He didn't think that they couldn't has evidenced by Eowyn, but that there were too good to fight. War was nasty and women were to fair and wonderful to lower themselves s much as to resort to violence. He thought that women should only fight if it was the last resort.

[ElrondHighLord]

However, on the other hand from the Silmarillion, female fighters and war leaders appear to be more common astatedin the People of Middle Earth books, female elves were just as adapted to combat as male elves and were trained in the same way, see below:

In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal – unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a nér can think or do, or others with which only a nís is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength in speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child that is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need. (Morgoth's Ring, The Second Phase, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar)

And it appears that elven women and men were equal, yet the reason they fought less was because they were greater healers. However, in practise they through out the ages elven women went to war when necessary and arguably the eldar only went to war when necessary especially in the second and third ages. For instead, in the third ages the elves went to war fewer times, and yet Galadriel took part a number of parts, including the expulsion of the Necromancer from Dol Guldor, taken command in the assaults on Lorien and the final part of Dol Guldur, where she lay bare the pits and cleansed the forest as Luthien had done on Tol in Gauroth. She was also a member of the White council and considered the most powerful and strongest eldar of the third age. All this suggests Combat prowess, yet it is true to not go to Dol Guldor unarmoured or unarmed even though she may use her magical powers mainly, as she had taken part in too many wars and to therefore suggest her main weapon would have been magic as Luthien's had been.

Ohter notably women rangers/ warriors are Aredhel Ar Ferniel, Idril Celebrindal, Luthien Tinuviel and there are other Eldar women who would have fought as a last resort such as Nimloth, Nellas in the fall of Doriath.

Idril is probably the most notable actually combat prowess warrior, as Tolkien wrote her as being armed and armoured as well as describing her to use as sword, hadhathang which is where the inspiration of arwen's balde hadhafang comes from. Idril lead the refugees from Gondolin and it in the Lost Tales book, was faced with fighting the Balrog( the task would have fallen to her), if Glorfindel was not present. Overall, it appears that due to the nature of the Eldar elven women went to war when necessary as it is written that the ( elves would not take up arms hastily, excluding Feanor host who were bound by oath, yet once armed their resolve were unbroken)

I am going to have to continue late as I am only half way througjh, but am already really late sorry

[{IP} Aridor]

That is the Eldar, I assumed that she was asking about women.

[Puppeteer]

Women being human, but I think Rhiea meant females in general. Humanoid I think

[Lauri]

good thing PJ didn't take Arwen to Helm's Deep as he had plans for...

[Pasidon]

"No man can kill me."
"I am no man!" *Smack! *Boom! *Shrivel. "Sweet."

That sums it up.

[andrej]

hehe:D

[Rob38]

"No man can kill me."
"I am no man!" *Smack! *Boom! *Shrivel. "Sweet."

That sums it up.

Hell yeah!

[Puppeteer]

Let's not bother disputing that, it's been disputed far too much

[mike_]

All of what's been said is pretty much true...though, the Wainriders that conquered Rhovanion in the Third Age of the Sun trained their young women to fight alongside the old men and youths in defense of their homes; they were very valiant, beating down the rebellion of the Northmen.

[Pasidon]

Well if your army if filled with a bunch of old geasers, you wouldn't have a choice but to train a few young women since all your men have prostate cancer.

[{IP} Aridor]

Well for evil sides it is a different matter.

[Vithar-133]

In Middle Earth, it seems that the tolerance of whether or not women fought depends upon race...

In Mediaeval Earth, it was dependent on your homeland and/or the code you followed.

If you were in Europe and you were a knight, you'd follow Chivalry. In the view of Chivalry, women were seen as weak creatures to be idolized and defended. (This particular view seems to have taken on a bit of a stereotype, in that men generally view women as weaker than themselves, but men don't defend or idolize them much anymore...)

If you were in Japan and you were a samurai, or you followed Bushido, then you expected women to live up to the same values of honour and courage.

In my opinion, the fact that females in general have a more restricted combat role than do the males fits the time period perfectly.

Personally, I feel that women can be as skilled as, if not more than, men in combat.

Edited by Vithar Megilaglar, 24 September 2008 - 02:32 AM.

[Hasfusel]

I think that the Elves should have more female units because they see both men and women as equal; my commendations for the Healer and Arwen's Maidens.
Maybe you could do a Rohan Shield Maiden battallion...?

This will prove to the world that women are equal to men!




*all laugh*

Edited by Hasfusel, 24 September 2008 - 03:50 PM.

[{IP} Aridor]

It isn't that he thought women weren't good enough to fight it is that they were too good to fight. They were beautiful wonderful things that shouldn't have to be stained by vileness of war.

[Pasidon]

I think that the Elves should have more female units because they see both men and women as equal; my commendations for the Healer and Arwen's Maidens.
Maybe you could do a Rohan Shield Maiden battallion...?

This will prove to the world that women are equal to men!

For elves, both men and women fight because no-one can tell them apart.

[Hasfusel]

Perhaps women could do increased damaged to wraithes? Or maybe units such as the Witch-King should have increased armour against male units.