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#21 Devon

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 10:47 PM

Right...through better commanders :p So be the better commander and own the enemy.

Besides, if you want to relive those battles, do war of the ring or the campaign. The way I see it, skirmish is just a test of your command ability against your opponent's, ai or human. Unbalancing it otherwise defeats the purpose.



The bfme engine also just isn't built for this...

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#22 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 10:52 PM

It isn't unbalancing the game. It is making it asymmetrical. The need for symmetry is just obsessive fanboy nonsense. People have been so addicted and brainwashed that games should be a certain way they can't even consider other options. Real life isn't balanced by game standards but it is still an anybody can win world. You are totally wrong that most battles are won with numbers. It is the exact opposite in fact. So many times the force ratio is the same. If your enemy has greater numbers fight an asymmetric war. That is what real balance is. This is why terrorist can still hold on. In games there is only one way to play so thus it becomes a force on force battle and real thought and warfare go out the window. So many many times in history battles are won by those with the numerical disadvantage, because humans are prideful. They general with the force ratio in his favor stops thinking because he thinks that numbers alone can win a battle. The RAF was outnumbered yet they won. The Russians were totally outnumbered yet they beat Napoleon. The Spanish were outnumbered but they bleed the French dry. The Americans were outnumbered and outgunned but they won their freedom. Hannibal was outnumbered in Italy yet he won over and over. Alexander was outnumber many times yet he never lost. The British in Africa held off a better bigger Afrika Korps.The French repelled a massive Muslim invasion at Tours with meager forces. The British spent most of the hundred years war out numbered yet they won multiple stunning victories, like Agincourt and Crecy. The William Wallace by his cunning defeated a much better and larger force at Stirling bridge. The Scots won their freedom outnumbered at Bannockburn. The Germans were in dire straights at the end of WWII yet they nearly collapsed the American lines in the Battle of the Bulge. The Confederates were undermanned and under supplied the whole American Civil war yet it took till the fourth year for them to suffer a major loss. The Japanese destroyed a much larger Russian fleet in the Sino-Russian war. The Viet-cong made the Americans bleed heavily while being vastly outnumbered and outgunned. The 300 held off a huge force of Persians by choosing ground that was to their advantage. The Athenians defeated a much larger Persian fleet at Salmais. More often then not when a smaller force takes on a larger force it wins. Why? Because only a brilliant commander knows he can do it. Most of the time he would pull back and remove his enemy's advantage. Most battles are with equal numbers. In war and battle there is nearly nothing more important than the terrain. It can change the course of the battle. This is why West point has their students study pages and pages of battle maps. The land and movement of troops is what wins the battle. Everything else leads up to that. Without the ability to master that nothing else matters. All the men and supplies in the world won't matter if you can't use it right. As it stands now being the better commander has nothing to do with winning. It is all about cheap shallow strategy. Skirmish is a useless test. It doesn't require any tactical knowledge. Just know the set way to win and nobody can stop you. It simply becomes a race. It isn't battle for middle earth it is race for middle earth. There is no thought involved.

Edited by AA IP'er, 24 October 2008 - 10:59 PM.


#23 Elvenlord

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:03 PM

AA pretty much killed you, Yoda, but I'll add some more anyways

Right...through better commanders :p So be the better commander and own the enemy.

Besides, if you want to relive those battles, do war of the ring or the campaign. The way I see it, skirmish is just a test of your command ability against your opponent's, ai or human. Unbalancing it otherwise defeats the purpose.




The bfme engine also just isn't built for this...


But this adds another dimision (My God, I can't spell), adding more to the overall game. It also creates new playstyles. Right now, second tier archers are better in just about every aspect than the first tier. Now, if you can make them more or less equal, just with different purposes, both will still be used, instead of one being phased out.
In addition, it's not really who's the better commander, just who can build fastest.

AA pretty much covered this part. Making ambushes and flanking more important won't completely unbalance the game. Some things may need to be tweaked, but you act as if it's perfectly balanced now.


.........Firing while stealthed and increasing flanking bonuses are well within the engine's capibilities. More higher ground bonuses may be outside that, however.

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#24 Devon

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:14 PM

I never said flanking and height would unbalance the game, AA said he wanted the terrain to unbalance the game, I say that's stupid.


All your points basically come back to the idea of brilliance on the part of one general or stupidity on the part of another. That's what skirmish is all about...just you against your opponent, with everything equal.


I'm not a huge fanboy of symmetry, I hate it in factions. But in skirmish for maps, it's fine. If you want advantaged and disadvanted battles don't play skirmish. Play war of the ring...unbalanced numbers, specific terrain, friendly creeps, special maps, pretty much the whole deal. So play what already fits your style, instead of trying to change skirmish to that itself. Because the nature of skirmish is that it's equal. It's just a skirmish between two small armies, not some giant conflict that changes the course of the war.


Bfme can't handle this. Half the time it gives you flanking advantages when your enemies are facing you, and the other half it gives you no advantages when their backs are to you. Units can run through eachother, so formations aren't much of a help. Terrain can't slow or impede units...bfme just doesn't work with it. So stop trying to make this a total war game, because it just won't work. It's never going to be a completely realistic representation of the lotr universe, and there's not much point trying to make it one. If you want that, wait for a new game to come out, or play a different mod like The Fourth Age for R:TW. But in bfme, it's not gonna happen.

Edited by Yoda_, 24 October 2008 - 11:15 PM.

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#25 Vithar-133

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:37 PM

All very good points...But, if you're going to attempt to add a whole new layer to the skirmish mode, then it begins to crumble.

Imagine for a second, that each part of this game is a tower. Skirimsh is one, WotR is another etc.

WotR is a stronger tower, awaiting renovation.

Skirmish is a weaker tower. It's about as built up as it can get. Adding any more levels would cause the tower to weaken, and eventually crumble.

Basically, I don't think adding anything on top of skirmish is, as it were, going to make it better. Instead, renovate the lower floors.

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#26 Dalf32

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:39 PM

im all for realism to an extent, as long as it doesnt impede upon the gameplay and the style of this game. we must keep in mind what kind of game this is, as well as what kind of game it isnt. it is an rts meant to recreate the battles of the third age in middle earth, but it isnt a realistic game like rome: total war or the like. tweaking the flanking and height bonuses or the stealth system is one thing, but we must stop ourselves from completely redoing the game. we cant change the style of the game completely without ruining it imo. people play bfme over r: tw for a reason so we cant get carried away.

my two cents i suppose.

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#27 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:41 PM

Skirmish isn't a match of wits. It tests only who has had more practice with that factions winning strategy. There is no room for innovation no room for thought. Making the game realistic would only unbalance EA maps. Realistic game play requires realistic maps.

You say it is impossible? Maybe but why not try? I am not afraid of failure. I live to strive against hardship. We won't know we can't do it unless we try. I would rather go die fighting for my freedom than live as a slave. It is the same for everything.

#28 Elvenlord

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:45 PM

All I'm really suggesting is this:
Allow selected units to fire while invisible (In trees) Unless enemy units are very close.
Increase flanking bonuses.
And, thinking about it, it may be possible to increase armor of units of high ground. You can already add range, just add an armor modifier as well.

Maybe the flanking bonuses don't always work, but we have to work with what we're given.


Damn, AA beat me again! :p

Edited by Elvenlord, 24 October 2008 - 11:45 PM.

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#29 Vithar-133

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:46 PM

Skirmish isn't a match of wits. It's a match of logistics. No room for innovation? No room for thought? Huh...Then under that logic every skirmish should go the same way every time you play them.

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#30 Devon

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:46 PM

Dude, it's a game. You'll have to die for your freedom some other time.


If you wanna try and code this in after everything is finished, by all means, be my guest. Rob has enough on his plate with the current to do list, not to mention his family. And why not try to get it to work? Because it would add another freaking year or two to the developement time! You may have the private beta, but there's about 25,000 worth of downloads of people who don't.


Do you know the ratio of EA maps to ours? I don't wanna be restricted to only be able to play certain maps by the mod team, I wanna be able to play everything!


No room for innovation? Me and dojob spend hours some days innovating, trying it wacky, crazy ideas that we think might have a grain of merit. Demolisher rush, troll rush, tower spam, dojob even got nothing but towers and walls one day, and this is dojob we're talking about! :p


It's simple. If you don't like the way skirmish works, don't play it. Play another mode that suits you more, or wait till we finish everything currently on our plate before we try out a ton of new, very difficult ideas!


Edit: Elven, I don't have any issues with that...except that atm you can't see invisible units if you walk over them. Invisible perhaps, but that's taking it too far...

Edited by Yoda_, 24 October 2008 - 11:48 PM.

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#31 Elvenlord

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:49 PM

Did you not really read my post? Even I could probably get that done in fairly short order, and I'm lazy as hell.

...............screw it, I will just mod it myself :p

Crap Yoda! Now you made me look like the bad guy! ;)

Edited by Elvenlord, 24 October 2008 - 11:50 PM.

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#32 Devon

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 12:03 AM

Sorry? :p

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#33 Vithar-133

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 12:08 AM

Heh.

All I'm really suggesting is this:
Allow selected units to fire while invisible (In trees) Unless enemy units are very close.
Increase flanking bonuses.
And, thinking about it, it may be possible to increase armor of units of high ground. You can already add range, just add an armor modifier as well.

Maybe the flanking bonuses don't always work, but we have to work with what we're given.


This is a relatively good idea, Elven.

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#34 Elvenlord

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 02:41 AM

Relatively? What's that supposed to mean? :p

So, does anyone actually see any problems with what I've suggested? There's always room for improvement.

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#35 mike_

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 04:32 AM

The problem I see is Yoda's immovable fear of change.

#36 Vithar-133

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 04:52 AM

Relatively? What's that supposed to mean?


Well, insofar, it is, imo, the only really good idea suggested, relative to the other ideas.

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#37 Puppeteer

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 11:13 AM

This is the essence of war. In every game since such stunning victories like Agincourt and Crecy are not possible.

Yeah, don't mention The Battle of Agincourt to the French. The French historians are holding some grudge convention to get the total annihilation by the English to be revoked, by claiming that the English performed some vast heinous war crimes, and that the numbers were exaggerated to make the battle of Agincourt a propaganda event. Of course, no English historians with any evidence are allowed in. But hey, what can you expect? It won't work, you can't apply modern war rules to a battle that ended hundreds of years ago. Nor fabricate allegations.

Also, don't forget the Armada, Aridor! That's one of my favourite legacies of Britain.

#38 Devon

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 01:48 PM

The problem I see is Yoda's immovable fear of change.


Nice completely irrational and unfactbased insult.

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#39 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 01:52 PM

This is the essence of war. In every game since such stunning victories like Agincourt and Crecy are not possible.

Yeah, don't mention The Battle of Agincourt to the French. The French historians are holding some grudge convention to get the total annihilation by the English to be revoked, by claiming that the English performed some vast heinous war crimes, and that the numbers were exaggerated to make the battle of Agincourt a propaganda event. Of course, no English historians with any evidence are allowed in. But hey, what can you expect? It won't work, you can't apply modern war rules to a battle that ended hundreds of years ago. Nor fabricate allegations.

Also, don't forget the Armada, Aridor! That's one of my favourite legacies of Britain.

Well the Armada how could I forget. The Brits mashed the Spanish and then the Spanish screwed themselves and ran into a frigging hurricane.

#40 Devon

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 01:57 PM

Keep this on topic please...

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