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Sensor Range Idea


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#1 feld

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:52 AM

I'm NOT requesting this as a feature for v1.1 ... let me start by saying that.

Rather, recent talk about recon starfighters and my first complete playthrough of one of the v 1.0 campaigns gave me an idea about how Star Wars sensors work that could be implemented in PR. I'm looking to answer several questions:

1. What's your feeling on how canon this idea is? Does it feel Star Wars to you?
2. Does this variation sound like any fun to play?
3. Can anyone point me to a reference on how I might make these changes?

The basic idea is that a suitably equipped ship should be able to see anything on the tactical map unless the target is small and hiding behind something else. Hence give capital ships unlimited sensor range and smaller craft limited sensor range.

Rationale: Assuming that the ships are in scale to the map as well as each other, the space tactical maps appear 20 or 30 km on a side (based purely on how big EXECUTOR is on the minimap). Large military craft (like an ISD or Mon Cal) would have a very long sensor range in scale with the map. This idea is based on the way the old X-Wing/TIE Fighter games played, my take on the movies & novels (Zahn, Black Fleet), and real world/hard sf spacecraft detectability mathematical modelling I've been working on over the years. If you recall playing X-Wing vs TIE fighter, you could see large ships upwards of 100 km away. If you recall the view of the Imperial fleet at Endor from the Rebel flagship's bridge or Emperor's throne room windows, the observers were a LONG way off and we could see the ISDs just fine (see * at end). Long story short: there shouldn't be much fog of war in space.

This has some in game effects that I hope others will find interesting:

1. The defender (as long as they have some kind of capital craft or large base) can reasonably see the whole map from the beginning of the battle. Perhaps some bases (pirates) are a bit less capable...but when something comes out of hyperspace within 20 klicks: the defender should know exactly where it is.

2. Given the time it takes the cap ships to cross the maps, attack tactics might change considerably. It still takes time for a cap ship to launch starfighters: do you jump in on top of the defender and pummel them at the expense of being without starfighter cover? Or do you jump out far away such that you have a longer time to deploy your starfighter screen?

3. Asteroid fields would be the only places that the large ships couldn't see automatically (unless the enemy had a cloaking device). They have "fog of war" as they do now in EAW/FOC/PR. This introduces a modest amount of uncertainty. It also means that you've got to get a platform closer to the field so that the enemy fires and is revealed or fly starfighters into the field to scout it out. A player might be able to hide starfighters in the field to achieve a modest surprise.

4. Small craft (transport and lower size) sensor ranges would depend on the craft. Something like an Imperial TIE fighter or Vulture droid relies heavily on outside sources for vector to targets because the sensors to do that are on the launching ship. This allows TIEs to be cheaper and is in keeping with Imperial policy of ensuring their pilots are dependent on carriers. Such starfighters would have very short sensor ranges. Something like an X-Wing, a Star Wing, or a Blastboat (larger and designed for independent operations) would have a larger sensor range. This again changes attack tactics considerably by making it harder for the quick Blastboat/ATR raid to be successful: no more hiding from the AI just out of sensor range picking his fighter squads off in twos and threes. The raiders have a limited sensor range. The base does not. The defender can mass squads of starfighters on the raiders, potentially destroying them before they can damage the station.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

r/
feld


*Long sighting ranges on large objects make sense when you realize that a Star Destroyer (1.6 km) at 20 km distance appears about 4 degrees wide. For comparison, the full moon appears about 0.5 degrees wide when viewed from Earth. It stands to reason that, if you are on a large space platform, and you've got sensors with full sky coverage, that you're going to see that ISD if it's within 20 km's pretty fast. Please take my word for it (or accept for purposes of argument) that a spacecraft putting out enough power to perform like starfighters do would also be visible to suitable sensors at very great distances. Two RL examples: radar on modern warships routinely spot aircraft at hundreds of kilometers and it has been calculated that a Space Shuttle maneuvering thruster would be visible to a modest (~1m) telescope pointed in the right direction at thousands of km.

Edited by feld, 28 November 2008 - 07:09 AM.


#2 A1Dasdfsdkli4r2

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 10:26 AM

What about Crystal Gravfield traps? The Defenders could bulid them like golan Stations, (At an enormous cost, mind you.) And even cloaked ships could be seen.the sensor jamming ability could also be like sensor jamming on Fett's ship, meaning it would be invisible to everything but the naked eye, so It would not show up on the mini map. Imagine Cronal coming in behind your defenses and vaping your Flagship with the proton beam ;)!

#3 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:48 AM

This is basically how FOW works now, but instead of seeing the whole map, it's more like half (well, in Skirmish). I think this is a fair compromise for the sake of gameplay. The AI is really stupid already, so seeing its every move would just make it worse.

We don't really have a robust FOW system in EaW - there's not much I can do differently with it - so I find it difficult to justify changing it. It would be cool if you couldn't actually see past asteroids or nebulae, but as it is, you just see around them.

Furthermore, we're already using abbreviated distances for weapon ranges, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to consider sensor range to be the same way. Just consider how awful the game would be if ships fired at each other from 100 kilometers away. As it stands now, the FOW ranges are tied into the maximum ranges of lasers/turbolasers, so you have to be a certain class size to operate the large guns without spotting help.

If you want to change it yourself, it's really easy: just go into each ship and adjust <Space_FOW_Reveal_Range> and perhaps <Dense_FOW_Reveal_Range_Multiplier>. That's just about all you can change.

#4 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 03:55 PM

Did you use PR enhanced? I made the maps 4x larger. Still, we should be able to see reverting ships, at the very least. Could we do that? I do think that enhanced sensor ranges on larger maps might be good.

#5 feld

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:10 PM

This is basically how FOW works now, but instead of seeing the whole map, it's more like half (well, in Skirmish). I think this is a fair compromise for the sake of gameplay. The AI is really stupid already, so seeing its every move would just make it worse.


In retrospect...you're definitely right: all I'm really looking to do is make cap ship sensor ranges very long. But I was thinking that having infinite sighting range would make the AI appear smarter.

Furthermore, we're already using abbreviated distances for weapon ranges, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to consider sensor range to be the same way.


Yeah...I definitely think your current system is the best compromise of gameplay vs canon. What I'm thinking about doing is a short mod that I *think* might be "more canon" but gameplay would probably suffer. It would certainly change.

Just consider how awful the game would be if ships fired at each other from 100 kilometers away.


Actually, asking why they *don't* is what started me on this line on inquiry. This is something about canon that isn't always clear to me. Some canon sources (RotS:ICS) list cap ship weapons ranges in the light seconds. With the weapon that capable, in-universe explainations of why we don't see them used at those ranges are necessary. The best I've found is in the WEG:Rebel Sourcebook - they describe a typical Rebel battle line and its killzones. They say that at long ranges (hundreds to thousands of km), even turbolasers cannot really dent cap ship shields because the beam intensity dissipates with range. So the cap ships engage smaller units like corvettes first b/c those are the targets that can be hit and damaged.

The major space battles seen in the movies are then explained by the special circumstances each involved: at Endor, Ackbar specifically rushed the Imperials and at Coruscant, Grievous had to get so close that he needed to shift to repulsorlift to conduct landing operations and terror-type bombardment. So the Republic fleet followed him down. The result was a traffic jam over the Senate district and the other CIS target sites.

As it stands now, the FOW ranges are tied into the maximum ranges of lasers/turbolasers, so you have to be a certain class size to operate the large guns without spotting help.


By "class size" you mean that you set the variables described below based on the size of the ship? Or is there some way to set the spotting range for a bunch of ships at once?

If you want to change it yourself, it's really easy: just go into each ship and adjust <Space_FOW_Reveal_Range> and perhaps <Dense_FOW_Reveal_Range_Multiplier>. That's just about all you can change.


Thanks! I'll give that a shot.

r/
feld

Edited by feld, 28 November 2008 - 04:16 PM.


#6 feld

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:11 PM

Did you use PR enhanced? I made the maps 4x larger. Still, we should be able to see reverting ships, at the very least. Could we do that? I do think that enhanced sensor ranges on larger maps might be good.

Yes I am and I love it. Ahha...but changing the map sizes means PR-E changed PR's space tactical map scale. That explains why the game wasn't playing the way that I expected from PR's older posts describing sensor ranges. Is PR also changing space map sizes in v1.1? Maybe all I'll do is adjust FOW ranges to 4x their current values and see how it plays...

r/
feld

Edited by feld, 28 November 2008 - 04:18 PM.


#7 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:25 PM

Try twice the current values to compensate for size. I doubled each edge.

#8 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 08:44 PM

Some canon sources (RotS:ICS) list cap ship weapons ranges in the light seconds. With the weapon that capable, in-universe explainations of why we don't see them used at those ranges are necessary. The best I've found is in the WEG:Rebel Sourcebook - they describe a typical Rebel battle line and its killzones. They say that at long ranges (hundreds to thousands of km), even turbolasers cannot really dent cap ship shields because the beam intensity dissipates with range.

That is true and I believe there is a mechanism for damage fall-off in the game constants, although it's relatively slight. Also their targeting computers (or whatever equivalent starships use) aren't capable of hitting something accurately at such ranges. That was mentioned in the Enemy Lines duology with their pipefighter ploy.

As it stands now, the FOW ranges are tied into the maximum ranges of lasers/turbolasers, so you have to be a certain class size to operate the large guns without spotting help.

By "class size" you mean that you set the variables described below based on the size of the ship? Or is there some way to set the spotting range for a bunch of ships at once?

That's how I've done it, yes, but it was all manual labor. You can't do them all at once and this is still a relatively easy change as far as comprehensive ones go. EaW modding is a lot of grunt work (just open Hardpoints_PR.xml if you don't believe me).

Is PR also changing space map sizes in v1.1?

Well, jdk002 was working on a few mapping projects... then his hard drive crashed, so that's why you haven't heard from him lately. He's still trying to replace his hardware, so I wouldn't count on it.

#9 Tropical Bob

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:28 AM

Speaking of FoW ranges...Seeing the whole map does kind of ruin the gameplay, because that's how it currently stands in skirmish. After a couple minutes, the whole map is revealed, and then it's not as fun. And speaking of that, is there any way to remove that?

#10 feld

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:16 AM

Speaking of FoW ranges...Seeing the whole map does kind of ruin the gameplay, because that's how it currently stands in skirmish. After a couple minutes, the whole map is revealed, and then it's not as fun. And speaking of that, is there any way to remove that?


<grin>
Didn't say I thought it'd be more fun...just thought it would be more canon. I didn't realize that PR-E made the maps 4x bigger without scaling ship sensor ranges so the version I play isn't like "vanilla" PR. I think I'll be waiting for the v1.1 release and then decide what to do from there.

It looks like if you use the variable that PR mentions a few posts up (#3), you could decrease the FOW viewing range on the ships.

Edited by feld, 29 November 2008 - 05:17 AM.


#11 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:20 AM

Speaking of FoW ranges...Seeing the whole map does kind of ruin the gameplay, because that's how it currently stands in skirmish. After a couple minutes, the whole map is revealed, and then it's not as fun. And speaking of that, is there any way to remove that?

Yeah, it's really annoying, but I'm not 100% on how to fix it. I know there's some kind of a "mercy" script that triggers the FoW reveal when you meet a certain level of tactical dominance, but PG wasn't above using constants in their scripting, so obviously we're now blowing those out of the water in terms of combat power and such. I'll try to find time to look for it - let me know if you get to it first.

#12 Tropical Bob

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:11 AM

Well I found this in GameConstants:
<Minimum_Tactical_Overrun_Time_In_Secs> 30.0 </Minimum_Tactical_Overrun_Time_In_Secs>
<Tactical_Overrun_Multiple>3.0f</Tactical_Overrun_Multiple>			<!-- Permanently reveals FOW when X-1 odds reached. -->
No idea on how to mess with it though.

Right above those tags is also a bunch of stuff on auto-resolve stuff. Don't know if you've seen them before or not. *Shrug*

Edited by Tropical Bob, 29 November 2008 - 07:11 AM.


#13 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:22 AM

Ah, okay, it was in constants, thanks. Yeah, I've seen them before, but after looking at so much XML, you tend to forget. I'll see what I can do with that.

#14 A1Dasdfsdkli4r2

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:58 AM

Did you use PR enhanced? I made the maps 4x larger. Still, we should be able to see reverting ships, at the very least. Could we do that? I do think that enhanced sensor ranges on larger maps might be good.


There is a problem with 4x map size. THe friendly AI seems to think its outside the standard field of play and will only move forward until it gets back in the map. Very annoying when your trying to group your units. This is really the wrong place to put this, but I'll forget later. If you wish I'll post it in the proper place later.

#15 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:04 PM

Did you use PR enhanced? I made the maps 4x larger. Still, we should be able to see reverting ships, at the very least. Could we do that? I do think that enhanced sensor ranges on larger maps might be good.


There is a problem with 4x map size. THe friendly AI seems to think its outside the standard field of play and will only move forward until it gets back in the map. Very annoying when your trying to group your units. This is really the wrong place to put this, but I'll forget later. If you wish I'll post it in the proper place later.

What? I'm not quite sure what you mean. It should work normally, unless I'm mistaken. I do know of a way to maybe fix it, if it's really a problem.

#16 Tropical Bob

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:52 PM

Did you use PR enhanced? I made the maps 4x larger. Still, we should be able to see reverting ships, at the very least. Could we do that? I do think that enhanced sensor ranges on larger maps might be good.


There is a problem with 4x map size. THe friendly AI seems to think its outside the standard field of play and will only move forward until it gets back in the map. Very annoying when your trying to group your units. This is really the wrong place to put this, but I'll forget later. If you wish I'll post it in the proper place later.

What? I'm not quite sure what you mean. It should work normally, unless I'm mistaken. I do know of a way to maybe fix it, if it's really a problem.

I think I know what he's talking about. There's the visible map, and then the "playable" map. Some units start outside the playable map. It's impossible to move units to a position outside the playable part, even though where you're trying to move them. If you try to move them there, they move to the edge of the playable part and stop. So there's a thick border around the map where you can't move any of your units, even though they may spawn there. I noticed this when I was trying to make large maps as well, though I think that it also happened when I made small maps too.

#17 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 11:10 PM

If units are showing up there, then the starting markers were placed too close to the borders. I don't experience that in my copy.

#18 A1Dasdfsdkli4r2

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:18 PM

Tropical Bob hit it right on the head. Thanks for translating my phsyco-babble into legible speech.

#19 keraunos

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 11:03 AM

If units are showing up there, then the starting markers were placed too close to the borders. I don't experience that in my copy.

I think they're talking about PR E here, which you obviously don't use ;)



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