68 replies to this topic

[Phoenix Rising]

Pirates get three different versions of the VSD.
First is a standard one, just with blue turbolaser fire.

All pirate lasers and turbolasers should be using Republic blue. That was a major overhaul I did in conjunction with the fire-linked projectiles that I was going to put into a sort of aesthetics post, but ran out of time. Maybe I still will; who knows. However, I'm sure I inadvertently missed a few ships, so if you see any pirates using red or green, please report it on the bug forum.

Looks like I really need to take a page from everyone else and start opening XMLs up myself and reading the things...

That's our fault for not providing enough description.

[coinich]

Alright, here's a question. Without the proton beams, why field the ISD at all? I'd think that two Tectors, a Venator or two for fighter support, and Lancers for cheap fighter ownage, and Victories/Dreadnaughts/Acclamators to balance it out would handle much of anthing out there.

[Kitkun]

A single ISD is much more well-rounded than a TSD. The ISD IV is quite effective against fighters and bombers, where the TSD IV just isn't. You can support the TSD with dreads and Lancers, but those are destroyed much easier, leaving the Tector without proper cover.

Edited by Kitkun, 09 January 2009 - 05:50 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Yeah, the ISD IV gets 60 heavy lasers per Anakin Solo ("advanced anti-starfighter weaponry"). It's incredibly powerful and well-rounded. The TSD is specifically meant to counter starships, which it excels at, but it has only a point-defense system to contend with bombers (an obscure armament that was assigned to the Imperial I in the original SotG and SECR, but I felt caused less confusion/contradiction on the Tector). I think they can be sort of complementary to each other though, since you can use the turboions on the Imperial, which are all mounted on the bow by II, plus Power to Weapons to batter down the shields on some MC ship, then use the all-turbolaser armament of the Tector plus its Power to Weapons to finish them off quickly.

I felt the proton beam on the Accuser (commonly sighted as an "Imperial III" by fans) was nothing more than a modification though, and thus not suited to being part of the upgrades. In fact, the only source for it that I know of is EaW. So I removed the proton beam from the Imperial line and gave the Venator the SPHA-T as an ability (which is the same ability as the proton beam, just with some different stats) instead, which gives it something unique.

Also, I'm considering making changes to the complement mechanic for the next release. I suppose I'll put it to a vote.

[Kitkun]

So I removed the proton beam from the Imperial line and gave the Venator the SPHA-T as an ability (which is the same ability as the proton beam, just with some different stats) instead, which gives it something unique.

That reminds me, I forgot to bring up something in the other thread. I don't like how the SPHA-T is done in 1.1. I liked how in 1.0 you had to maneuver the ship carefully to get it to fire from one of the three hangar bays. It could have stood a bit wider arc of fire, but I don't like how it's just 'heavy damage for the first ship that gets near' now.

Plus, Dal MP's SPHA-T effect was awesome.

Also, I'm considering making changes to the complement mechanic for the next release. I suppose I'll put it to a vote.

What can you change without unbalancing it?

Edited by Kitkun, 09 January 2009 - 06:15 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

That reminds me, I forgot to bring up something in the other thread. I don't like how the SPHA-T is done in 1.1. I liked how in 1.0 you had to maneuver the ship carefully to get it to fire from one of the three hangar bays. It could have stood a bit wider arc of fire, but I don't like how it's just 'heavy damage for the first ship that gets near' now.

Bottom line was it didn't feel like RotS as it was in v1.0. You have to make some concessions since EaW is only 2.5D and one of those is putting it on an ability that can target up.

[Fox83]

BTW did anyone noticed how freaking strong are last version of Strike cruiser (VI if memory serves) with 5 HEAVY OCTUPLETUROLASERS (same ones as on ISD IV a TSD IV) and you can have up to 24 in battle (Each spawning 2 TIE interceptors).

And I coudn't believe when 1 of these destroyed Venrator (By back stabing I admit) without VenSD up to even scrach paint on hull. (Shield got depleted at most to 50%.)

[feld]

Alright, here's a question. Without the proton beams, why field the ISD at all? I'd think that two Tectors, a Venator or two for fighter support, and Lancers for cheap fighter ownage, and Victories/Dreadnaughts/Acclamators to balance it out would handle much of anthing out there.

1. The fleet you mention could do the job...but the ISD is cheaper and can still meet a wide range of space threats while still giving bombard and bombing ability. I haven't looked at the prices...but the economics of the ISD and the Tarkin Doctrine seem to hold in PR: a mix of TSD, Venator, and Lancers like you propose would probably cost two or three times as much as a single ISD in v1.1 (14,000+28,000+2x5000? = 52,000). You get an ISD for ~18,000 credits. A single ISD could pretty much do the "system control" job in ~90% of the Emperor's systems...once he pwned all of Ghost's *@$@!n# independent fleets, pirates, and renegade system governors of course. The two or three ISDs that you can buy for the cost of your fleet might offer more strategic flexibility in the long run.

2. Bombard and bombing run. TSD = no bombing run.

BTW: ISD prices drop to roughly 10,000 if you capture Kuat and send Sate Pestage to run your Kuati ship production. Oh yes...dagger shaped shadows in the skies for all my people!!!

Edited by feld, 09 January 2009 - 02:35 PM.

[coinich]

Alright, good reasons. Maybe its my playing style; I rather have 5 fighters and 5 bombers, rather than 6 fighterbombers because the fighters and the bombers can do their respective jobs better than the other fighterbombers. The fighterbombers become even more valuable when you see that the loss of one ship equals the loss of two roles filled respectively; if I lose a TIE Advanced, I can still bomb their capital ships.

Following that, a Tector, I daresay, can hold much stuff larger than a corvette. Yes, its vulnerable to fighters, but thats where stuff such as Lancers and other dedicated ships come through. I certainly see the cheapness of the ISD when you consider the roles it fills, and I probably wouldn't have a fleet without one, but to me you gain flexibility with a corresponding loss in strength of specific areas (6 turbooctos vs 8 turbooctos...). Would a fleet composition (Tectors + Venators + Lancers + Cruisers/Frigates) have some sort of fragility, say if the Lancers were knocked out, my antifighter defenses might be strained (I suppose the Venator(s) would cover, but for the sake of argument)? Does that flexibility come with some sort of assurance (at least in larger/cap ships) that that role can be filled even if the dedicated ships are all destroyed? Basically, is it like a card house, where if one card is removed the rest can't support themselves?

A lot of this stems from when I got caught with my pants down in 1.0. My Rebel fleet only had two Republics and a few smaller ships; nothing in comparison to the 20+ ISDs and hoards of other daggerships that attacked. I won, probably because of tech and healing ships, but it has warned me to be on my toes since.

This leads to the question: what are the Imp corvettes especially for? The IPV is one of few Imp ships with a concussion missile launcher, and I suppose its speed gives it the ability to "plug" holes in the defence, but the Bayonette confuses me. Its turbos would suggest that it is to go up against heavy ships, but I haven't seen so much from that. I had three Bayonettes face off with two Nebulon Frigates (skirmish). The only way the frigates were destroyed was because of my Golan lending some firepower; I had lost the shields on one, and another was destroyed by the time one frigate was killed. They then hyperspaced a Dreadnaught into the fray and then I lost it all.

And yes, I never leave home without my Strike Cruisers...

Edited by coinich, 09 January 2009 - 03:10 PM.

[Kitkun]

As far as I can tell, the Bayonet is good for cheap long-range fire support and light anti-starfighter. Try 'em en masse.

Could we at least stick Dal's SPHA-T beam on the ability? Or does the ability only accept certain effects?
Sorry, but I just loved that effect.

Maybe I'll just jury-rig somethin'...

Edited by Kitkun, 09 January 2009 - 05:17 PM.

[coinich]

PR, how many other units actually use the proton beam? Overriding it with Dal's effect shouldn't be much of a problem, right?

[feld]

This leads to the question: what are the Imp corvettes especially for? The IPV is one of few Imp ships with a concussion missile launcher, and I suppose its speed gives it the ability to "plug" holes in the defence, but the Bayonette confuses me. Its turbos would suggest that it is to go up against heavy ships, but I haven't seen so much from that.

Think that the Bayonette's were designed for missions that FOC doesn't really simulate that well. Customs duties, scouting, system patrol. All stuff requiring hyperspace capability, long endurance, a decent crew and sensors, and enough guns to give a typical pirate pause. But FOC doesn't simulate endurance at all...and the pirate fleet battles can only be done as major engagements: not months long drawn out individual battles in several places like they probably would be.

I use Bayonettes en masse and as "heavy scouts".

[Phoenix Rising]

Generally speaking, the Empire's all about specialization and the Alliance is all about generalization. If you look at the Rebel units, most of them don't have to worry about being totally vulnerable to a certain unit because they're okay against everything. Specialization is expensive, but I think it's more effective in combat if you're smart about it.

As to the Bayonet - and also the Marauder - I wanted to add some heavy corvettes that were capable of engaging frigates for the benefit of the Star Base 2. Really only the DP20 could before, but that was more made to counter starfighters.

What effect are you referring to from DalMP? If it was done as a projectile (as it was in v1.0), it's not really possible to use it as an ability (as it is now).

[Kitkun]

What effect are you referring to from DalMP? If it was done as a projectile (as it was in v1.0), it's not really possible to use it as an ability (as it is now).

Yeah, this one. It's just so pretty, and something differen't.
Darn the engine.

Edit: Fixed broken link.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 10 January 2009 - 09:37 AM.

[Tropical Bob]

A mix of a couple Tector-, Venator-, Dreadnaught-classes serve as a nice fleet, no matter the cost. The Tector-class heavy weaponry protects the smaller ships by generally skull-f***ing everything around it, whilst the hundreds of starfighters from the Venator-classes and the couple Dreadnaught-classes protect the skull-f***ers from enemy bombers. The Venator-classes even lend some small combat support of their own, past being a carrier, since they carry some heavy turbolaser batteries of their own, as well as the pwn-sauce SPHA-T. You could even substitute the Dreadnaught-classes with Lancer-classes for more anti-bomber duty, but then you lose some anti-frigate capacity from the Dreadnaught-class heavy turbolasers. Besides, once you get to a certain point in GC, money is no longer a problem.

Though there is a way to change the appearance of the proton beam particle in LightningEffects.xml, or whatever that file is. I gave it a blue/light blue coloring, and reduced the number of beams, but I haven't tested the new color out yet.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 10 January 2009 - 09:48 AM.

[Radio Star]

First things first: Great mod. I've tried just about all the popular EAW mods out there and this is the only one that's held my interest for any length of time.

Now let's move on to business. While I was able to find some information on the forums, most of what I've learned about the mod has been courtesy of several trial-and-error restarts. I see that there's been some talk about creating a central FAQ listing and want to say that, as a new player, this would be an absolute godsend. For the ship design portion of the discussion, I've been mucking around with various fleet combinations, trying to get a gut-level understanding of the combat mechanics. Combined arms seems to be pretty well represented in the mod. I'm happy to see that you can't just spit out a few untouchable Godships and obliterate everything in your path like you can in vanilla/most mods. What I have noticed so far is that upgraded DP20s are cost-effective to the point of absurdity. Not only are they fairly easy to get tech-wise, but they build stupidly fast (I've noticed that time is almost a more important commodity than money in PR) and enough of them can kill .. well .. anything. I took 50 DP20s (mostly levels 1-3, with about 10 level 4s and maybe a couple 5s) into Kuat in the core worlds campaign and summarily executed about a dozen star destroyers, about a dozen Victorys, and uncountable smaller vessels. I think I lost about 5 corvettes. What I noticed is that the AI doesn't push into close range and my assumption is that at such long range, they DP20s are just to small to hit. Anything that tried to get into knife fighting range was focus-fired into oblivion.

Question one: I'd like to know more about the mechanics of this. Is there somewhere I can find more information on range vs. accuracy and targeting?

Question two: Am I overly impressed by my little corvette fleet because I haven't experienced really powerful and cost-effective fleets yet, or are those results a little out of line?


Thanks again for a great mod!

[Kitkun]

Question one: I'd like to know more about the mechanics of this. Is there somewhere I can find more information on range vs. accuracy and targeting?
Question two: Am I overly impressed by my little corvette fleet because I haven't experienced really powerful and cost-effective fleets yet, or are those results a little out of line?

I don't really know for sure, but I think that's partly an engine thing. Heavy weapons already have really low accuracy against corvettes, but long range does certainly play a part as accuracy gets worse the farther a ship is.
From what I've seen, the shot is fired based on probability of a chance to hit if the unit continues on it's current course. If it changes course, then it may cause more shots to miss or, if it turns into the shots, more to hit.

I haven't really tried a DP20 swarm, but upgraded ships are all very cost effective against the pirates because the pirates all use unupgraded ships. You might have a harder time against the ones with illegal weaponry though. I suspect just a few hits with turbodisruptors would put some serious hurt on any corvette.
I can't remember where the toughest pirates are in the Core Worlds, but I recommend attacking Brentaal IV.

Edited by Kitkun, 31 January 2009 - 08:22 AM.

[Tropical Bob]

I noticed that those few planets (Along the Hydian Way?) between Ralltiir and Coruscant are particularly dangerous. To the point where I haven't touched them yet in my campaign.

I use a fleet consisting of four Venators and three Tectors. Nothing stands in my way with that power. Perhaps facing some illegal weaponry would, but I don't believe there's much, if any, in the Core Worlds campaign.

[Radio Star]

So I've clearly got a lot of learning to do. I've been browsing through the XML files and have more (always more with me) questions.

1. Energy capacity and energy refresh seem to correspond to energy per shot in the projectiles file. I assume that the weapons which do energy damage reduce the combat effectiveness of the target vessel, but by how much? What's the correlation here? In a somewhat related question, how is a weapon's rate of fire calculated? Hardcoded?

2. What are the definitions of the various armor types?