202 replies to this topic

[Clement]

All this history reminds me a german forum I found the other day, in there most of the "new" 3d/2d" stuff came from T3A mods, and they are not really carefull about credits... That sounds that all the new art stuff are created here, and used outside

[Vardamir]

I want to say that,we use some models from The Throne of Arnor mod.Creator of this mod co-operate with Lord Istari(he also from Russia,creator of Age of Men Mod) long time ago.So Lord Istari gave some models to creator of Throne of Arnor mod(Tauron aka Amandil) and he use them in his mod. Tauron gave me rights to his mod when he left modding. Elven Alliance we take from this mod.
And now about Fortress. We build our Fortress from Amon Sul and Fornost principle.Flags we make red,because standart LAGondorBanner (we use him in our mod) use Red banner,that's why we used red flags(from begins i want to use blue banners,but we stopped in red).

[Lauri]

You can't take stuff from Elven Alliance just because it's in The Throne of Arnor mod... You have to ask the maker of the stuff, not a mod that's been allowed or not to take things from another mod

[Malush9321]

For every one:
we did not stole any model,any textures!It is realy true!If we take some models-we ask for permission!
2 m@tt:what we did?ok,i tell you:
1.Remake arnor citadel from the tower of Amon-Sul
2.Arnor mill,barracks,archeryrange,stables(i remake it),remake elven barracks,workshop,forge!
3.Textures for many units!
4.Original palantir icons(tnx to BFME 3 project)
5.Original special powers!
You can download The Throne of Arnor and you will see what we took from it!
Robert J.-don't wory about you citadel!we did not you it!
In readme we will write all who help us!We realy interesting in cooperating!

[robnkarla]

It looks like things may have stemmed from Lord Istari allowing use of models that were not his. Things like the Arnor walls which I'm sure are mine except the treb ugprade, the dunedain camp, and sub-objects that are in other models, units, etc. This might the crossroads of where things went wrong, as some of the TEA stuff that shown is also in RJ (with credit and permission where needed).

While I know that the fortress is based on the amon sul fortress, some of the changes added/done on it look to be taken from RJ, though it is hard to tell. If there is someone else out there who has been able to follow and use my tutorial I'd love to know, but you had to take the re-mapping from somewhere. I did some work for LI and textures/structures that was specifically only meant to be used in Age of Men.

It seems like you just might have gotten permission from people who did not have the ability to grant that permission. And yes, you might have re-made the structures, but there are pieces taken directly from models that others have made. For instance, the walls on your mill are almost identical to the walls on my level 1 arnor barracks. A portion of your stable is almost identical to a piece of TEA's stable, etc.

Robert J.

Edited by robnkarla, 13 February 2009 - 11:14 PM.

[Vardamir]

You can't take stuff from Elven Alliance just because it's in The Throne of Arnor mod... You have to ask the maker of the stuff, not a mod that's been allowed or not to take things from another mod

Sorry if we use models from your mods.I didn't know,that the Tauron can take some models without asking.Tell me,what materials exactly from yours mods?

[robnkarla]

I do have to say, that there is good work in what you've done as far as I can tell from the small images, it's just very hard as cancelled mods get rolled into others and work is joining together to be able to tell what you have done and have not done. Also, when you take over a mod, or get permission to use stuff from other mods, you just have to be very carefuly on what you use and being able to track who did what.

For TEA, except for a few specified things, you should have permission to use them as long as you give the appropriate credit, as per Cel's readme. There are some things you cannot use without his or the originator's credit.

Usually, the way it should go is that you outline all of the things that you have done in your request as that is what you'll be hosted on, not necessarily what is in the mod. If you can track down where everything came from, and list the items that are strictly yours with no other source except EA's work as the grounds for your hosting you have a decent shot. Then you can list a credits where you outline where things came from and you shouldn't run into problems.

Robert J.

- As for the citadel - I just want to make it clear that isn't the structure I'm concerned about (I'm looking at some of the other structures). The only question I had on the citadel is how did you do retain the mapping when you imported to adjust. You haven't taken RJ's citadel/expansions. (outside of the wall.) That is my wall system (outside of the trebs, and I never gave anyone permission on that.

Edited by robnkarla, 13 February 2009 - 11:35 PM.

[Malush9321]

What a problem,man?
maybe you will say that my own model The Guard of Marannon is not mine in real?You like a real child!about mill:do you think,that i cant make 4 boxes?it is realy funny!

[robnkarla]

The mill was a small example of where sub-objects may have been used. I'm not doubting you can make it, but when it is included with a number of the rest of the items, it's just something that raises a red flag to me. I'm not doubting you can model/skin, etc. I'm just saying make a list of things that you did with only stuff from scratch and/or RotWK/BFME as your source.

There are just different stages to things and you will be granted hosting based on what you've wholey done. I'm sure what you've all done has a good chance, just list that instead of features of the mod. Show shots of things that you have done.

Then just when it is released make sure you have permission for everything, and make a list of credits.

Robert J.

edit - and the easiest examples of my work are the dunedain camp (I can recognize the layout anywhere) and the Arnor Walls. You may have done similar to the tower and I didn't adjust that much, but it's identical. The way the walls were re-done to be buildable, especially the gate. You just can't tell me that that is not mine. Those are some examples.

And I'm only pressing the issue, as these items are popping up more and more in mods and I need to take a stance at some point. My e-mail/pm is everywhere, so it's not that people can't get ahold of me.

Edited by robnkarla, 13 February 2009 - 11:47 PM.

[Vardamir]

edit - and the easiest examples of my work are the dunedain camp (I can recognize the layout anywhere) and the Arnor Walls. You may have done similar to the tower and I didn't adjust that much, but it's identical. The way the walls were re-done to be buildable, especially the gate. You just can't tell me that that is not mine. Those are some examples.

And I'm only pressing the issue, as these items are popping up more and more in mods and I need to take a stance at some point. My e-mail/pm is everywhere, so it's not that people can't get ahold of me.

Oh,man!Did you see original EA's walls of Amon Sul?We take them from the game and make some new models for them. For example we make new model and skin for Arnor Stonework

Edited by Vardamir, 13 February 2009 - 11:58 PM.

[robnkarla]

Yes, I have seen the walls in game. These are my walls:



The proportions are pretty much exactly the same as I've done. The edits are exactly the same. EA's models have tower outside of the gate and many other things that had to be adjusted. You just happened to edit the same way? You were able to do those changes but you were unable to modify the treb and just basically re-did the gondor treb so it really doesn't fit? Come on.

And your new texture looks like you just took the upgraded BFME1 gondor texture and applied it to the walls where it doesn't fit too well.

Robert J.

Edited by robnkarla, 14 February 2009 - 12:05 AM.

[Malush9321]

So,you sad that we can't remake walls?you think it is so difficult?If you want to do something-you will do it©Ukrainian famous saying!

[m@tt]

This is gonna get messy...

Vardamir, Malush - stop claiming ignorance and stop arguing. We don't care whether this other mod used the same stuff. Some (but not all) of that work is clearly not yours. We don't know whose fault it, all we want is that you credit people where necessary. At the moment, you're saying it's your work, which is a lie.

TRUTH - Do not lie. Do not claim other people's work or ideas as your own.

You posted here asking for hosting. If you want hosting, start co-operating. Now.

m@tt
Staff

[Malush9321]

This is gonna get messy...

Vardamir, Malush - stop claiming ignorance and stop arguing. We don't care whether this other mod used the same stuff. Some (but not all) of that work is clearly not yours. We don't know whose fault it, all we want is that you credit people where necessary. At the moment, you're saying it's your work, which is a lie.

i sad:
"We will write all names who help us!"
Lie?lol?it is realy true!do you think i am realy keen on lieing..?
We sad that some models(maybe 15%-20%)we take from The Thone of Arnor!And we are going to credit Amandil!I don't know where did he find all that models!i know that we have permission to use it!We don't say that it is our work!Write all names wich we must credit!BUTStop saying that realy My own models is not realy mine!

[m@tt]

i sad:
"We will write all names who help us!"
Lie?lol?it is realy true!do you think i am realy keen on lieing..?

You keep denying things aren't yours when they aren't.

We sad that some models(maybe 15%-20%)we take from The Thone of Arnor!And we are going to credit Amandil!I don't know where did he find all that models!i know that we have permission to use it!

You need to credit the original modders. Amandil took several stuff without permission. You can't just credit him.

We don't say that it is our work!Write all names wich we must credit!

When you post of images of your mod without credits, you are inferring it is all your work.

BUTStop saying that realy My own models is not realy mine!

No one has said that. Look at my post: it says "SOME" of the models are taken from other mods, not all.

[LordTurgon]

Hey, whats the link for Throne of Arnor mod?

[robnkarla]

Didn't want to post any more.....

For the walls, I'm not saying that you can't edit them. I have nothing to keep you from editing them, but here are the facts to explain on them if they are yours:

- Did you re-map the textures or follow the tutorial to retain textures or use models that you were able to import that kept their textures?
- As far as I remember there is no "whole" wall hub for Arnor in game. I could be wrong on this piece. (cbamonsul45.w3d is the closest thing to it) So you re-built a wall hub that is the same size/proportions as mine?
- The gate had towers attached and did not look that way. You edited the gate so it's the same look/mapping etc.

You did all this, but your trebuchet expansion is almost identical to Gondor's treb model? It's simple. I know you can model, I've seen the stages on some of your models. You may very well can explain each of the steps, but this is just my gut feeling looking at it

Robert J.

Edit: And I'm sorry, the base of your citadel as I can tell comes from RJ:

http://forum.wlotr.r...p?showtopic=707

Yes you made changes, but it is identical to mine when you start - you didn't even hide one of the roofs in the topic. you may have thought it was the orginal EA's fortress, but it wasn't.

Compare those first few shots with these:

Screenshots: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 build-up statue build-up

That's level 1, I have to find pics of level 2 and three. In that topic it looks like you had 1 and 2. Then you switched it around and dropped level 3 down to 2 and got rid of 2 in some of your other screens.

Yes, you did some additions and modelled some of your own, but you started with RJ not EA.

Edited by robnkarla, 14 February 2009 - 01:09 AM.

[Mathijs]

Oh christ... not this again.

[Malush9321]

I sad we will credit some peoples.Plz,write their names!
Robert J. how jld are you?i think 10-11?right?
it is can be you citadel,because it is EA Amon-Sul tower!Right?So you think people in Ukraine can remake(as you do it)Amon-Sul?You think we are so stupid?lol!
about treb:we are going to improve all our models,textures,but it will be in near future.
do you think,if we still your models-we will show them here?no good idea.
we will credit Celeglin,because other users sad that we use not Amandil models.We will credit Ridder Geel-he helped us alot,and i think will help in the future.if you say whos models we use-we will credit him,what a problem?
do you want links The Throne of Arnor?ok,Vardamir will post them here and you will see that we don't lie.
Another problem?

Edited by Malush9321, 14 February 2009 - 06:50 AM.

[robnkarla]

You've got to be kidding. Don't get in an age war with me.

I didn't say I made the model, of course EA is the base model. I'm referring to the edits that you have used for the base of your model.

So let me you walk through this, as you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

1) This is EA's Amon Sul keep:



All one object, statues, no banners, door is seperate, etc.

2) when you import the model into RenX, 3ds Max, etc. This is what you get:



In order to have the textures be mapped you had to do "X" here - hex edit, write a custom import script, re-map it, or take your model from someone else. My guess from further below, you used RJ's model which has the mapping intact, as why else would you have other stuff there. This step nearly all modders never get past or will just model from scratch not using EA's BFME2/RotWK models.

3) Let me lay out the changes that I did to the model (Not much and some of my most basic work, but lets see):



You'll notice the 3 levels that I've done with three different roofs, banners around the bottom, statues moved to their own objects, torches, etc. I also tried to pare down polies to help keep the lag down. You'll notice the bad shadowing across the base of the model and the banners (which has been removed in later versions, but this is important)

4) Next I'll show pictures from your site, when the model was first added. Things have changed judging from your pics in the first post (banners moved up - since the reason the banners were low is due to a gameplay reason in RJ and you wouldn't have the reason, and other changes)





- Here you will notice you used level 1 of the RJ model that has been split. You'll also notice you didn't even hide the level 1 roof when the level 2 roof was added. You just dropped the level 3. Outside of the buildplots, the only modeling change on your base was adding a bridge for when the moat is built.
- On the second pic you'll see the banners, which were not on the EA model, but on the RJ model. You'll also see the same coloring/shadowing issues. Here - no work on your part.
-The next pic is for the statue upgrades. They are from EA's model, and a model that was already mapped and seperated for you in RJ's model. Not a big issue, but still "work" that was done by someone else.

From that point on, the rest of the model is work that you did, but as you can see you used RJ's edited model as a base for your citadel. Please, just stop it, it's getting ridiculous. Tell me how you did step 2 for a number of your EA's models. That's where most people cannot pass. Tell me why it is so obvious that you did the work?

If you want, I can go through each of your models and point out stuff that you didn't do compared to what you did do. The was an example of my most basic work. The wall system is more complicated and I can walk you through how it's mine as well, not to mention other items.

I was absolutely wrong on the windmill. At the time I saw the pic (which was incredibly tiny to judge for hosting), I could not tell and made a judgement based on the rest. The walls are different (as mine aren't just boxes). You're work on the windmill is really good, and it's a piece to be proud of. I'll say it again, if you drop this nonsense of trying to take credit for other's work, you'll probably get hosted.

And again, everyone here probably knows my age, so please just stop insulting me. From this post, there is clear backing for my accusations. And as far as giving credit, since you are insulting me I would likely never give permission for any of my work after this.

Robert J.

edit - and a quick note - one way to tell if someone else touched the model - if you can import the BFME2/RotWK model with the textures in-tact. Someone most likely worked on it if it originated in BFME2/RotWK. BFME1 structure models can be imported with fewer problems.



Last Edit - Malush9321 - I want to make sure you know that I have looked through a number of your models/maps, your Rivendell trailer. You definitely have talent to match a number of mods that have been hosted. You can model, map, (I don't know about coding) but you can do the work. I only started posting because of reasons stated in the post.

Edited by robnkarla, 14 February 2009 - 09:32 AM.