22 replies to this topic

[jureidinim]

Hi all - just wondering now that DOW2 is out - and there seems to be some success in modding - if a DOW2 skrmish AI would be pssible/being looked at.
After the great skirmishes with your AI for DOW1 (all expansions), it's really sad to step back to the braindead AI of DOW2.

[thudo]

Thats TBD. I'd like to start a DoW2 Advanced AI forum although because the DoW2 gameplay is so "basic" compared to DoW1 (which involves half base building logic) I seriously doubt one needs to code alot to make DoW2 AI smarter. Hell, there is only a fraction of the content in DoW2 which was in DoW1 in terms of managability (lack of buildings and teching was more than half of the DoW1 AI code logic). I don't see much to do in DoW2 since they made it more silver spoon-fed combat/tactics rather than rusty wooden fork.

[Inquisitor]

That's great news Thudo! Can we even mod the AI? What about Steam and tampering? They ban you if they detect changed files (all bans are final!). This could mean a lot of lost games to some users, but I guess they may not even look at the files that needs to be modified.

Regarding the complexity I partially agree, though the content is there - it is just just not evident on the first glance. There are different commanders and all their upgrades which greatly affect the game and the (required) playstyle. Also, there is another resource, Zeal, that also allows you to deploy new troops (required for Terminators) as well as build structures (for 'Nids) and cast Orbital Bombardment. Eldar can build webway gates, 'Nids can tunnel, the FC can have Terminator armour, the Techmarine can build turrets and the list goes on and on..

Now, I'm definitely not trying to discourage anyone - there shouldn't just be any doubt that it's not basic in any way.

Oh, and did I mention that it is AMAZIIING!?? The Single Player campaign is more a Tactical RPG than an RTS and I love it! I just can't believe all the stuff that you can get! The list of equipment contains hundreds of awesome items with great fluff, you squads gain powerful abilities and the missions are fun and challenging.

[thudo]

I do not remotely share your unabated enthusiasm over DoW2. There are some massively glaring SP and MP gameplay problems which are already discussed apart from the fact the whole DoW2 feels more like a dumb console RTS than something which requires more tactical intellect. Adding the layer with Steam and GFWL just complicates an already larger mess which likely can never be fixed since its embedded into the game. I find it VERY hard to transition to it simply because of many deal-breaking factors but mainly because it "tard-ifies me" since key gameplay aspects were lessened so that it would appeal to more people. Meh.

[jureidinim]

The game is fun (and isn't that what all games should be at it's very basic level?). The SP is very engaging. MP seems to lean more to the 3V3 as more competitive players aren't too happy with the 1V1 offering.

But the game being different has attracted a new audience (with some older DOW1 crossover players like me.. heh heh).
This is a good thing for DOW1 as it is still a viable alternative gameplay experience to the 40K universe.

Bigger battles/base building - DOW1
Smaller tactical fights with multiple reconfigurable commanders - DOW2

I hope you guys would take a shot at the skirmish AI improvement in DOW2 - you all did a fantastic job with DOW1 and elevated that AI game to a whole new level.

However, if you don't like it, then i guess it would seem like painful work to do anything with it.

Hmm - didn't know about the potential ban threat on modified files. Guess it would be like navigating a minefield then to mod this game.

[thudo]

But see what really needs to be changed to make the DoW2 Adv. AI better? Half the AI game logic for DoW1 AI was embedded in building and base logic. There is none of that in DoW2 so thats half the work load gone. Then yer left with a simplistic gameplay model. Sure we can change the fact the DoW2 AI likes to stupidly pump out vehicles in its later tiers but in the end there isn't much for us to do especially in light that this sequel is quite basic in its underlying delivery. Configurable Commanders = Warcraft3 w/o the base building and manual resource economy.

[jureidinim]

But see what really needs to be changed to make the DoW2 Adv. AI better? Half the AI game logic for DoW1 AI was embedded in building and base logic. There is none of that in DoW2 so thats half the work load gone. Then yer left with a simplistic gameplay model. Sure we can change the fact the DoW2 AI likes to stupidly pump out vehicles in its later tiers but in the end there isn't much for us to do especially in light that this sequel is quite basic in its underlying delivery. Configurable Commanders = Warcraft3 w/o the base building and manual resource economy.

Well - you got me there

I'm not a great player so i probably couldn't break down the gameplay for AI coding.

At the very least, it would be nice if the AI could:
1) Know how to use ALL of it's units - and actually build them
2) Stop the repetitive vehicle spam (although if playing annihalate - that may be the only option to take out a base)
3) Do some counter builds based on what the enemy throws at it
4) Stay in fights a bit longer - it does have a tendendacy to retreat very early in fights. This would change depending on situation.
5) Know how/when to use different wargear and abilities. I can't recall seeing any special abilities triggered by AI (Orbital strike, Roks, Eldritch storm,terminators..etc).
6) Repair its vehicles
7) Recognize when it is playing take and hold victory and stop wasting time attacking the opponents base. Even a walker camping a VP is far more productive than trying to pound on a base in a take and hold scenario.
8) The nebulous numbers game of knowing when to capture req/power points, even decapping an opponents point to deprive him his resources.. etc.

Relic did state, after they looked at the Beta stats, that they were surprised at the amount of comp-stomp games that were played. They promised to look at the AI down the road.
This is Relic - they make great games, but looking at AI coding - i'm not sure how far "down the road" we would have to go to get this done by them.

Edit: 9) Some tweak to tyrannid AI to maximize their synapse link ability and others like tunnelling under a suppression unit.

Edited by jureidinim, 25 February 2009 - 07:45 PM.

[LarkinVB]

I do not plan to buy DoW2. I decided that Relic will not get more money from me due to bad DoW1 support and will stick to this decision.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I'll probably wait a bit until I give DOW2 a try. Not even sure if there's already a demo available to check out the gameplay.
According to the rumours it plays more like diablo than DOW. (I wonder what DOW3 will be: An ego shooter? A Civ game?? An online RPG???)

Well, I like Diablo & Co., therefore there's a good chance that I like the game in single player. Not so sure about multiplayer though. The opinions about that seem to be quite different.

Not so sure about the DOW2 AI. Since there's no building in the game, the AI coding has to focus on tactics and not on strategy, and good tactic AI is usually a lot more difficult to code than a build strategy AI. If I even have a look at the AI will highly depend on how much I like the game and what AI potential is possible with the limited DOW2 gameplay and modding options.

[thudo]

@Arhkan - I'll work with you on DoW2 AI issues if you are game. I serious SERIOUSLY doubt there will be alot of work to do because DoW2's gameplay is so frick'n simplistic and console-ish + maps are smaller so meh. There are half the elements to contend with.

[Psychobabas]

Dont waste your efforts Thudo.

DoW2 will be marked as a complete failure. RTS without building management? Tiny battles, WC3 style?

This will fail so miserably. It's like noob-friendly Warcraft 3 rip-off.

[Rhedd]

That's seriously your opinion, Psychobabas. I'm far from alone in really enjoying DoWII. Saying that it's a WC3 ripoff either shows you've not actually played the game, or that you're an idiot, since they're in no way similar. Custom wargear in no way equals WC3's hero-focused and hero-driven gameplay.

Thudo, you're welcome to your opinion, as well, but DoWII isn't nearly as shallow as many claim. The depth is just elsewhere. I think that the type of player that values their skill at perfecting build orders just has a difficult time valuing their ability to tactically maneuver, instead. That doesn't mean the game is shallow, though.

Like Arkhan said, I bet that if you guys did as good a job on DoWII's AI as you did on DoW1, you'd find it harder to program, not simpler, because while it's easy as pie to teach an AI to build things in an optimal order, it's far harder to teach it how to flank, assess terrain dependent tactical situations, and maneuver in a sensibly bold yet cautious manner.

And here's where I beg you guys to try.

The most glaring flaw of DoWII, to many people, is the typical Relic non-existent skirmish AI.

Have you actually been to the forums and noticed how many people say, "Man, I sure hope the SkirmishAI team does a mod for DoWII, and soon"?

If there's nothing to be done with the new AI other than teach it how to build more than scouts and razorbacks, then for God's sake DO it. The effort will be minimal, and the game would be improved dramatically.

Teach the AI how to build all the units and actually use its special abilities, and you'd be heralded as heroes by a huge chunk of the fanbase. (Including me.)

Edited by Rhedd, 02 March 2009 - 12:13 AM.

[thudo]

My motivation with modding DoW2 comes also how much Relic will allow us to edit/change the game the way the fans want to. I'd have more incentive if I knew 3d models could be exported ingame like how easily they can in DoW1. If Relic gives us more freedom in DoW2 then that gives us all more impetus to change what paid devs have failed to do. Right now, like CoH, its brutally locked down where only code changes can happen. Hell, we can't even create our own maps and the ones in DoW2 are so bloody small and uninspiring.

I'm a little surprised that the DoW2 community would demand better Skirmish AI from it when its clear DoW2 is meant for multi and internet play against a human player. Why play against an AI when you can just match against other players and GO?

Anyway, we'll see about DoW2 AI dev -- I can see what we did in DoW1 and just "simplifying it" for use in DoW2 because their are half the things for the AI to worry about now. No teching, No base building.. just worrying about building X unit, choose X wargear, use X ability, cap area with X unit, retreat X units.

[Rhedd]

My motivation with modding DoW2 comes also how much Relic will allow us to edit/change the game the way the fans want to. I'd have more incentive if I knew 3d models could be exported ingame like how easily they can in DoW1. If Relic gives us more freedom in DoW2 then that gives us all more impetus to change what paid devs have failed to do. Right now, like CoH, its brutally locked down where only code changes can happen. Hell, we can't even create our own maps and the ones in DoW2 are so bloody small and uninspiring.

Totally agree with you. Of course, none of that stops anyone from modding the skirmish AI, but it would be nice to have some tools to mod other things, too. (Especially maps.)

I'm a little surprised that the DoW2 community would demand better Skirmish AI from it when its clear DoW2 is meant for multi and internet play against a human player. Why play against an AI when you can just match against other players and GO?

So, how is that different from DoW1? Yet, you felt the need to make a good AI for that game.

I understand if you simply don't like DoWII and don't feel like devoting time to it, but "it was made for online play" was just as true of DoW1, and I would've thought that you, of all people, would already know the millions of reasons people want to play skirmishes against an AI, instead of real people.

Anyway, we'll see about DoW2 AI dev -- I can see what we did in DoW1 and just "simplifying it" for use in DoW2 because their are half the things for the AI to worry about now. No teching, No base building.. just worrying about building X unit, choose X wargear, use X ability, cap area with X unit, retreat X units.

Believe me, that's plenty to do, with the AI in the state that it's in at the moment.

I don't know much about modding AI, but I do know enough to have tweaked CoH's AI to build units in the proportions that made me happy, so I thought I'd look in to doing the same with DoWII.

I often joke about how Relic AI isn't bad, it simply doesn't exist. Wow, who knew I could've been so right? The .ai file that contains all the rules for how to pick what to build? In DoWII, it's EMPTY. The file structure is exactly the same as in CoH, but there's just no AI. To be fair, it's not completely empty. There is some left over code having to do with building CoH engineers, for all the good that does.

I guess the AI is picking units based on the very simplest cost/effect ratio, because there's no code at all dealing with what unit is good against what target, what unit is better than its cost suggests, limits on how many of one unit is practical, or anything else that was present in CoH. No wonder it only builds two units.

Vanilla CoH AI wasn't good, by any means, but it was a far cry better than nothing.

Help us Obi Wan! You're our only hope!

Edited by Rhedd, 02 March 2009 - 05:19 AM.

[thudo]

Its ironic as back last Oct I was told by someone high up in the forums that someone from Relic would approach me to work on the DoW2 AI -- boy, so much for curtailing the old AI spectres of the past. Goes to show how important AI is to the gaming industry. Our AI team likely would have coded it to be amazing in 1-2months due to the lack of complexity without base building and teching. Anyway, I am be conferring with Arkhan to see if we can start something up based on the massively successful Advanced DoW1 AI.

[jureidinim]

Just to show how bad off we are with the current AI - from someone who apparently looked at the current AI setup for DOW2:

"-It doesn't use global abilities. My guess is these were not implemented in the version of the game the AI was made with.
-It uses unit abilities completely at random in combat.
-It does avoid targetted abilities, but it has no idea what those aiblities do, only that it should run away and it does so completely at random (literally a % chance modifier)
-It has no idea what units it can build and does so completely at random, usually sticking to the cheaper units or units in the current tier its upgraded to. It also continually tries to build engineering units now removed from the game.
-It builds upgrades and researches completely randomly.
-It caps points at random, although it does prefer vic points if losing and power points.
-It doesn't know what setup weapons are and simply attack moves with them if it has randomly built one.
-It does know how to build power generators and will prefer them more over time if not built.
-It still tries to send debug messages during an unneccesary think process (this is something coders will more likely understand).
-Lower difficulty AI has absurd pauses and delays built in. Off the top of my head I believe the easy AI does nothing except use a hero for 10 minutes... yes, 10 and delays all orders by 5 seconds. If you lose unintetionally to that maybe this is the wrong game for you
-Depending on the difficulty it does try to have a larger force when attacking and will retreat if overwhelmed although the logic behind this is basic at best. If being out microed, but still a larger force they will not retreat until aboslutely on the verge of death often dieing anyway."


Sad - really sad. No AI is perfect but I don't think this even qualifies as a valid attempt.

Thudo - you can't rest easy knowing that such horrible AI exists in the world!... heh heh...

[Adolphus Perrywinkle the 13th]

I've just come to visit, as the release of the "There is Only War" patch made me remember this game existed. I was wondering, bright-eyed and naïve as I was, how much progress you would have made so far. I had imagined Thudo and the others jumping right on the game the second it came out. But then I see this.

I don't have the game. In fact, whether or not I'll get it hangs solely on the Skirmish -mode, and the state of its AI. The initial reports from the beta and earlier versions said the AI was about as weak as we had come to expect from Relic, (See jureidinim's post.), but apparently it got improved somewhat in later versions, including "There is Only War". I have heard simmilar stories from the Company of Heroes community, as well - later patches making the AI something you might actually want to play, apparently. Seems Relic is slowly learning that single player, including Skirmish Mode, is a huge part of any RTS. Red Alert 3 is very multiplayer-centered, yet the Red Alert 3 devs have stated that almost 70% of its fan base has not once taken the game online, and they act accordingly: Red Alert 3 actually has pretty decent AI, unlike Relic's RTSs - at least up until recently. You just know something is really fucking wrong when EA is one-upping you in the AI department.

So, Thudo and ArkhanTheBlack, we need you. Hell, whether or not I'll buy the game actually depends upon you. Relic really gets something to think about when players actually look to third-party mods rather than their actual game when it comes to deciding whether to buy it. Besides, unlike what Psychobabas said all the way back in March; to the best of my knowledge, DoW 2 has been recieved very well and has sold accordingly. It is by no means a tiny, unimportant little flop of a game, but rather a greatly selling title, and absolutely nothing for you to ignore as some insignificant little failure.

So, Thudo and Arkhan, please come back to us. Don't leave us out here in the cold. :(


PS:

I'm a little surprised that the DoW2 community would demand better Skirmish AI from it when its clear DoW2 is meant for multi and internet play against a human player. Why play against an AI when you can just match against other players and GO?

Uhh... What? My first thought was that this was a very "out of character" thing for you to say. Those exact things you posted could be said about just about any Relic RTS in the past, especially DoW 1. Yet you started working on that one, improving it infinitely in mine and many others' eyes. Adding to this, is the feeling I'm getting that Relic, as well as other RTS devs recenly, are starting to see how inherently wrong that statement is. In fact, if you want to know what else I have to say on the matter, just refer to Rhedd's post on the issue. It's all there.

Those are my thoughts on the issue. Please respond with your own. I just hope I made the right choice posting it in this thread, rather than make a separate thread on the issue. I'd rather not for this post to go ignored.

Edited by Adolphus Perrywinkle the 13th, 02 August 2009 - 06:54 PM.

[thudo]

Its not out of character actually -- our team I believe by and large is NOT INTO DOW2 simply because of the "near juvenile/console-like gameplay" when compared to DoW1. Almost all vets of DoW1 simply haven't moved to DoW2 because of reasons stated in the past just when the first public DoW2 betas arrived. We don't have much elevated morale or passion to code AI for DoW2 because there isn't as much fun and scalability as DoW1 still continues to offer even after 5years. I have so much excellent work coming still for DoW1 mostly due that I can edit so much more in DoW1 than just mere code.

DoW2 will need to mature much more in order for us DoW1 Adv. AI devs to consider it. I also cannot split my time between two platforms.

What bothers me more to this day was that someone from inside Relic was going to approach our team awhile before DoW2 went gold and build Adv. AI for em. Yeah well that obviously never remotely happened so guess Relic had other priorities. Too bad really -- we really could have given the whole gaming community (not just our own) one of the best RTS AIs ever. Their loss of course (typical of most game companies who cite AI really low on the dev totem pole).

[jureidinim]

I don't have the game. In fact, whether or not I'll get it hangs solely on the Skirmish -mode, and the state of its AI. The initial reports from the beta and earlier versions said the AI was about as weak as we had come to expect from Relic, (See jureidinim's post.), but apparently it got improved somewhat in later versions, including "There is Only War". I have heard simmilar stories from the Company of Heroes community, as well - later patches making the AI something you might actually want to play, apparently.

Just to update this:
The AI has been improved dramatically since it was first released. It's still has a lot of room to be better, but it's a vast improvement over the original.
Relic's support this time around for the game overall has been far better than DOW1 (espescially those dark days of soulstorm).
The entire gameplay itself has radically changed in the "There is only War" patch. It plays very differently to it's original outing.
Now that they have released the map editor and some SCAR docs they are getting more tools into the hands of the modders/fans more quickly than before - the game is still only months old, and so much has changed/improved.

[Andrez64]

Personally I do not see why one would need an enhanced skirmish AI for this game. This game might be fun for some against human opponents online, but if you want to have 40k fun against AI, nothing beats the raw, varried battles in DoW 1. When I played skirmish in DoW2 (and I tried for a good month) I suddenly realized that I was totally bored during gameplay. I did not feel any of the exitement I still feel after 5 years when playing DoW1 skirmish. I asked myself "Why for heavens sake play DoW2 skirmish, if I can have 10 times the fun and exitement playing DoW1 skirmish". And that was the end of DoW2 for me.

I'm an old, old gamer from the atari/msx/amiga/DOS aera and I've been into DoW since the first moment it was available in Europe and I think it is a uniquely entertaining RTS. Until this day I've bought and played every single RTS that has made a name for itself and many, many more at the side and to me DoW is The One that stands lonely at the top. Supcom is a good second for it's large scale battles and endless strategic possibilities.

I had high hopes for DoW2. Personally I envisioned a vastly enhanced DoW1. I thought DoW2 would build on what DoW 1 had to offer and remove some of the quircks and limits of the old DoW1 engine. No more shooting through walls for example and an adequate and acceptable solution for fighter/bomber units (unlike the absurd SS implementation), more vehicle options, more infantry options, skirmish wargear for the commanders, higher resolution graphics, improved skyboxes, improved and modernized interface, more customization options, and a new race: the tryranids. etc. In general I envisioned a more complete representation of the 40k world than what was possible in DoW1, with many units added that we all dearly missed in DoW1. And above all I thought Relic would surely realize that a DoW game like this has to be fully moddable. 40k is modding. 40k is customization. DoW1 made one thing very obvious: Gamers at the very least want to be able to fully customize their 40k armies with banners, logo's, teamcolours etc. So of course I expected to see a totally overhauled and extended army painter with an abbundance of cool customization options. Boy was I mistaken...

To my surprise we got less of everything. Less armour units, less infantry units, smaller unrealistic squads, small maps, almost no skirmish maps, no basebuilding, less customization, and in general a dumbed down, tasteless, flat and boring gameplay. Or as Thudo calls it "near juvenile/console-like gameplay". But the graphics in general are much improved of course. And the tyranids look truely superb and magnificent. But looks are not enough! In every aspect of the game DoW 1 stays closer to the true character and feel of 40k and unlike Dow2 the DoW1 battles feel like true raw, bloody 40k battles on a gritty 40k battlefield.

Sorry for this rant, if it is perceived as such. Feel free to delete.

But my question stands: why would you ever want to do skirmish against AI in DoW2? For the enhanced graphics? Not for 'enhanced' gameplay that's for sure.

Edited by Andrez64, 02 September 2009 - 10:36 AM.