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#1 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 06:25 PM

This is only talking about me, personally, giving my input on what I would like to see. Take it seriously or not, read it or no, its the outlook of one very passionate RJ-ROTWK fan. :D

I'm very much into the lores and history of Middle-Earth. Numenor, Arnor, Angmar and Annuminas and Fornost and Carn Dum, Rhudaur and Arthedain and the Barrowdowns, things like that. If someone were to ask me where I'd like to see the mod go (and I know that nobody is) I'd love to see more done for those factions - Arnor and Angmar. I know people have mentioned overhauls and reworks in the past, but I was wondering how deep those overhauls and reworkings will go. Its kinda hard to read through dozens of pages in a thread when it gets to just tons of people arguing and fighting and debating. XD

But I digress. Custom maps! I had some ideas for a few.

First, a real Fornost. Of course, this would involve a larger map area then the ruined Fornost gives, because your enemies need room as well, but I mean a real Fornost. Capital of Arnor after the abandonment of Annuminas, with the full cities walls. The un-ruined apperance. In the original Rise of the Witch-King game, in the Angmar story mode, in one of the final battles you have to attack and destroy Fornost. Thats the one I'm talking about. The Fornost given in the skirmish map selection has the burned buildings, the partially ruined walls (you actually are only playing on half or maybe even one third of the original Fornost map in that one). I'd like to see a fixed one with extended areas at the bottom so that the computer (or you, assuming you don't play the fortress-holder, or your online enemy) has room to expand as well.

Annuminas - the old capital of Arnor. A custom map done on this would be hard to do because no set appearance is ever given in any of the movies or games, there aren't really pictures of it or descriptions or anything. But this is a double-sided sword and it makes it easier for that reason, as well - you can use your imagination to come up with something. It was bordering Lake Evendim I believe, wasn't it, on the southern shores? Anyways, a custom map made of this (I would imagine it would be a fortress type map) would be great.

Anyone else got any ideas? Any suggestions for custom maps they'd like to see? A Hollin map would be pretty cool, as well, if you ask me.

I understand that these would be hard to implement into WotR mode, so I'm not even suggesting that. If anyone could do it, great! Go for it. If not, then no harm done - even just done as skirmish maps, these would be awesome. And like I've said before, I'm not a modder so I don't know what I'm asking here. But judging from what I've seen in 1.06, you guys definitely have a handle on the custom maps. :D I'm seriously impressed by them all.

Anyways, take it or leave it, those are my suggestions. A more in-depth branching out of Arnor and Angmar sometime, as well as custom maps made for those two. Lore lovers of Middle-earth, like me, would be hugely attracted to this aspect of the mod. I'm in it until the end, of course, no matter which way the mod goes - but this is, you know, just what I think would be neat.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#2 Vithar-133

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:30 PM

I believe mike's planned far a reworking of Angmar that will make you wonder what EA's was like...

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#3 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:37 PM

I just hope he includes more of the Dark Numenoreans. They don't play a big enough role in Angmar, like I've said before. But anyways, I've posted enough about that in another thread XD

And I apologize to everyone whos seen my double posts, by the way. My mouse is broken and sometimes it double-clicks even though I only click once. So I click one time and because its broken, it posts double. =\

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 13 March 2009 - 08:38 PM.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#4 mike_

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:19 PM

Urgh. They play too large a role in my opinion.

#5 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 11:07 PM

Well, I've always seen the Witch-king of Angmar as more of a lord of evil men rather than trolls and wolves and orcs. Sure, he had those things, but he didn't have them in the numbers and force that EA implemented. The Black Numenoreans were called under the banner of the Witch-king and played a pivotal role in the defeat of Arnor. But maybe I'm overstating it a bit - the Black Numenoreans WERE, in the end, all but destroyed after the defeat of Sauron in the Battle of the Last Alliance. (Yes, I've been reading the appendixes in ROTK.) So I do suppose there wouldn't be many of them, but there weren't by any means none.

But if you exclude the Black Numenoreans, you'll just have to work harder at the faction, giving it a decent mid-late game swordsman unit as well as new archers. The Thrall hordes suck hardcore anyways. At least with the Black Numenoreans you have plenty of room to expand and work with, without having to wrack your brain coming up with something new. Like I said, trolls and wolves and thrall hordes only go so far - nobody wants to play a faction full of stupid trolls and wolves, you know? When you start working on re-vamping Angmar, let me know and I'll give my two cents whenever you want it. :D I'm not that horrible at coming up with ideas, and I'd love to be able to help out with the mod sometime. I've played it for ages, giving something back and contributing would be pretty cool.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#6 Morgulshade

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 01:42 AM

Well ive got an idea for a map. A Cirith Ungol map would be great (if there isnt any...). A fortress map with the tower and the yard infront of it. It would be nice to add a Shelob creep somewhere in a tunnel network if possible.

Edited by Morgulshade, 16 March 2009 - 01:43 AM.


#7 mike_

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 01:53 AM

Well I think it'd be good for Angmar to start out with Mountain-Orcs that can be upgraded and are much stronger than the Mordor counterparts (forming a 'bridge' between them and the Uruk-hai) for the early-game (but will last throughout the game (being upgradeable and stronger)). Then have evil Men (of Carn-dum and Rhudaur) and Wolves form the mid-game troops. Late-game would be mainly monsters, trolls, and various heroes.

That's what I think, anyway.

#8 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:06 AM

There is a Cirith Ungol map on 1.06. Its only two-player, its got Shelobs Lair and the tower. And a citadel as well, so the tower is mostly just for looks I s'pose.

I don't see Angmar as a monster faction, no matter how I look at it. Smart trolls and monsters like werewolves and vampires aren't at all loyal to the books. Maybe in the Silmarillion thousands of years before Angmar came 'round, but not in the time of Angmar so much. It should stick to the wild men and the dark/tainted/corrupted/black dunedain/Numenoreans in my eyes. Thats not to say trolls and wolves should be completely excluded, but they shouldn't play so much of a part. I guess it makes it more exciting for people if its different, you know, not like every other faction in the end, but it definitely doesn't stick to Tolkiens idea. It actually kills Angmar a little bit, in all honesty.

The Hill men are good, because they're canon. Men of Carn Dum are good, but there were some Black Numenoreans with Angmar. Tolkien actually said that in the books. But anyways, I'm blathering. In the end, you guys are the ones to decide what goes where :D And it'll be good no matter how you do it. But I'd definitely prefer if it stuck to the lore behind the tainted men and some orcs, and left monsters to Mordor and Rhun.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 16 March 2009 - 03:29 AM.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#9 Morgulshade

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:11 AM

there is?? Didnt see it lol...
And yes, I prefer it to have tainted men.

#10 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:02 AM

Yep, theres a Cirith Ungol map. Click Map Name in the skirmish selection screen, and check in the Cs. I've played it, its a pretty fun map, easy to defend since theres only one way for your enemies to get out of Shelobs tunnel. (Or into them, if you don't play the fortress owner.)

You know, you really don't even have to include the Black Numenoreans in the faction, in all honesty. Yet you could still have it a mostly Man faction, even so. You could use corrupted Dunedain or, like you said, the Men of Carn Dum. But Black Numenoreans do add a certain amount of entertainment to the faction, because people know them and like them. Or most people do. :D

But I'm not gonna argue about it, like I said. I'd just really hate to see Angmar 'Go to the wolves' so to speak. Or the trolls, for that matter. (But then again, it already is, lol.)

You guys, like I said, will do whats best for the mod and no matter whats done it'll turn out best!

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#11 Morgulshade

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:17 PM

I dont know much about the bnumenoreans and didnt know anything when I played ROTWK. But I must admit that, at first the wolves and trolls are real fun, but then angmar becomes boring, like faramir said, because of the mini-zoo Ea made with them. Id certainly like some units being a mix of a sorcerer and infantry or something like that.
Id also like to see (maybe this wont sound tolkien at all) a younger version of the mouth of sauron. (as the books said, he was a numenorean who wished to avoid death and learn from the dark lord...)

Just an idea ^^

#12 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:05 AM

A younger version of the Mouth of Sauron wouldn't work at all...see, all of the Black Numenoreans under Saurons sway fell after the Last Alliance defeated him and the Ring was cut from his hand. Now, thats not to say they were all killed, but the race dwindled swiftly after. Some lived on, lore says, in small, isolated colonies where they weren't discovered. But the Mouth of Sauron would've had to have lived at least two thousand years from the time of the Last Alliance, or one thousand from the time of Arnor, to the Battle of the Morannon. Impossible for anyone but an Eldar, or one of the Valar or a Maiar. Black Numenoreans only had two or three hundred years, tops. No matter how much they wished to avoid death, they couldn't. It was Illuvitars one gift to Men: that their deeds and creations should hold more sway in the world because they did them in such a swift span of time before they died.

No, I propsed something for the Angmar faction that actually sounds pretty good.

http://forums.revora...mp;#entry692319

Its really not bad, if I may say so myself. So if you guys don't mind, we should just keep this thread kinda narrowed down to only Custom Map ideas, and keep Angmar / Arnor faction discussions there. :D To save confusion. My ideas are around the 42'nd page.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 04:08 AM.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#13 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 03:52 PM

You can't have a young Mouth of Sauron. He is really old. So old nobody remembers his name not even him. His life is sustained directly from the dark evil of Morgoth and his lieutenant Sauron. Just as the Nazgul have lived since the second age as Ulairi. So the mouth of Sauron is somehow kept alive. It is unknown the full extent and power of the dark Master and the black faith.

On custom maps. We, the mapping team, have a lot planned. We are working as fast as we can. Look at the new LWM and you'll see a preview of all the maps that will be available. There will be more than that but, it is a time consuming thing and a lot of us are busy with school. If there are any maps you specifically want you can: A) Make it yourself, B) Ask a member of the mapping team if is being worked on already, C) Ask a mapping team member to make it. Our plates are rather full so don't expect any map request to get done quick it'll just go into the line. I for one am willing to do requests but they will be awhile before they are finished and you'd still have to wait for a up-date to have it in, as Rob checks the maps before they go in.

#14 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 05:40 PM

I wasn't trying to hurry you guys up or anything, I was just wondering what people wanted to see put in. I for one would like to see more of the lands from The Silmarillion. Berethil and Lanthir Lamath are two of my all-time favorites now.

But the only thing I could really suggest / request is a real Fornost, like I said in the posts above, and a fortress map of Annuminas. Those ideas are in my first post.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#15 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 05:57 PM

Well I for one would love to make the an Annuminas map, both in working order and ruined, so I'll throw that on my list for you. As far as Silmarillion maps since those aren't actual in the WotR time period they would take a back seat. If there was a specific place you wanted I wouldn't mind starting it so when I was stuck on my other maps I could work on that. Currently I have map of the Grinding Ice I am working in my spare time.

#16 CTLN7

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 06:15 PM

wheres the edoras map ,capital of rohan ? :good:

#17 Captain of Arnor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 06:59 PM

^ I've always wondered why there isn't an Edoras map also. That was kinda confusing to me. Meduseld and Edoras could make a cool fortress map, up on top of the big hill like it was.

An Annuminas map would be epic. The thing is, its not described in many places, which means basically that you can use your imagination to make it, and do it however you like. I do remember reading somewhere though that the city-kingdom of Annuminas was on the southern shore of Lake Evendim, and that it was circular in shape. The walls were in a large circular formation, I mean. It would make for an interesting defensive siege, trying to keep (and hold) walls that were circular. Could have four gates, one on the north, south, east and the west. (Since nothing I've ever read said anything about the gates.)

But Annuminas was never really ruined, in the sense of the word. It was never attacked or invaded, it was just abandoned because the Dunedain started to dwindle in numbers. So it became ruined, over time, because of time. See what I mean? It wasn't ruined because of fire and siege, it crumbled due to the years of disrepair after the Numenoreans of Annuminas founded the city of Fornost.

Anyways, you guys will do great on all of this stuff. :D Theres no better modding team out there, than the RJ team.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 19 March 2009 - 07:01 PM.

'The Twilight of Man is nigh, and coming ever closer. The days have shortened into cold, forlorn darkness and sunrise to sundown is a bitter struggle for survival. But do not think for a moment that we shall not fight. We shall not go quietly into the dusk. We shall not throw down arms and flee, or surrender. We will go on, we will not falter. And even should we die, we shall make an end that will be remembered for thousands of years. For beautiful Arnor that is, for glorious Númenor that was! We are the Dúnedain, we are the Men of the North, and our foes will remember our steel!'

Formerly Lord_Faramir.

My political compass: http://www.political...=1.62&soc=-4.56 (A lot has changed.)


#18 {IP} Aridor

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 07:13 PM

Edoras is being worked on.

There is a small ruined representation of Annuminas on the Lake Evendim map. It is rather small but is meant to be only a part and most of the rest is over grown.




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