70 replies to this topic

[Dunedain Lord]

Yes, but Arnor should have more effiecient infantry than the Elves, I think. They were Dunedain after all, and they could not have been too militarily weak to always need the aid of their allies

not very many of them were dunedain as the blood was mixed as stated by tolkein in one of his works (I have no lore in my brain)
but being duneadin doesnt mean you have like an uber defense system with like twenty thousand weapons in both hands.
*exaggeration*

[Anri1]

Yes, but Arnor should have more effiecient infantry than the Elves, I think. They were Dunedain after all, and they could not have been too militarily weak to always need the aid of their allies

not very many of them were dunedain as the blood was mixed as stated by tolkein in one of his works (I have no lore in my brain)
but being duneadin doesnt mean you have like an uber defense system with like twenty thousand weapons in both hands.
*exaggeration*

Yes, but being Dunadain means being stronger then normal men. And why the Arnor soldiers are named Dunadain soldiers, and arnor archers - dunadain archers?

Edited by Anri1, 24 April 2009 - 01:29 PM.

[Hasfusel]

Not all were Dunedain. The Royal line and nobility were, and we're going with the Dunedain Rangers too. I'd say restrict Dunedain status to the Knights (which please please please aren't KoDAs but ordinary albeit slightly stronger, slower and expensive Gondor knights with a reskin and arnor helmets/shields), Rangers and Royal Guard.
Círdan had a very active role, and not only sent aid but fought on behalf of the Grey Havens. He did not join any invasions to Angmar (note that he sent troops, however) but fought in the defense of Mithlond.
Arnor Soldiers and Archers are more or less the same as Gondor soldiers, being ordinary men in an ordinary army. Although the men of Arnor were supposed to be stronger than those in the late Third Age, they certainly weren't as naturally agile or skilled as the Elves.
I'm all in favour of a combined Remnants of the North faction.

[mike_]

Where does it say that Cirdan fought?

[Elrond99]

@Hasfusel

You´ve mixed two things up:

Dunedain and elvish blood - Only the royal line and the nobility had elvish blood, but Dunedain were nearly all Soldiers of Arnor, at least in it´s last days - Dunedain means Men from Numenor - most of them did not have elvish forefathers

Normal men were in Cardolan, around and in Bree, in Rhudaur, but not in Arthedain - because of that the Soldiers of Arthedain were probably nearly pure blooded Numenoreans (but of course they faded and their livespan got shorter during the time)

[Dunedain Lord]

@Hasfusel

You´ve mixed two things up:

Dunedain and elvish blood - Only the royal line and the nobility had elvish blood, but Dunedain were nearly all Soldiers of Arnor, at least in it´s last days - Dunedain means Men from Numenor - most of them did not have elvish forefathers

Normal men were in Cardolan, around and in Bree, in Rhudaur, but not in Arthedain - because of that the Soldiers of Arthedain were probably nearly pure blooded Numenoreans (but of course they faded and their livespan got shorter during the time)

as i said before, blood was mixing, and the dunedain changed slowly back to lesser men..

[Uruk King]

That's absurd, it could not have been the Royal line who remained true Dunedain alone, otherwise there would have been no Grey Company, Tolkien says that the weakest Dunedain realm was Rhudaur, as in few in number, not in pure-bloodedness, (a word a really don't want to use because it redirects back to Harry Potter). Cardolan, still few but more than in Rhudaur, and of course Arthedain, that's were most of the surviving Dunedain can trace their ancestry from.

It was only Gondor that had it's people loosing their Numenor blood.

[{IRS}Athos]

Uruk King is right. Almost all of the people living in Arnor (or Arthedain and Cardolan, at least) were Dunedain.

[Eärendur]

Here is a slightly revised version of the Arnor tech-tree that I made before, sorry that it's sooo long. I just played against Mordor and learned something, Arnor is WAY under-powered!!! I was clobbered in about 10 minutes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--POWERS--



Tier 1:
Heal, Rallying Call, Power of the Palantir

Tier 2:
Summon Hobbit Allies (summons 3 hordes of Hobbit Shirifs and 3 hordes of Hobbits with Pitchforks, all at lv. 5), Elven Wood, Summon the Istari (same power, shorter duration), Enshrouding Mist

Tier 3:
Summon Huorn Forest (summons a forest of Huorns, that camouflages and slightly increases the armor of all allied structures in an area 600 feet in diameter, that could look like this:
), Cloudbreak, Valor of Numenor (all allied men Arnor and Gondor units gain a 100% increase to damage and armor, and earn experience twice as fast)

Tier 4:
Earthquake, Sunflare

--END--

--STRUCTURES--

Fortress, changes:
1. Replace the Dunedain Alliance with a "Citadel Archers" upgrade, which doubles the rate of fire of the fortress and all expansion arrow-towers.
2. Replace the Elven Alliance with a "Retaining Wall" upgrade, which increases the armor of the fortress and nearby walls by the amounts that the Dunedain, Elven, and Istari Alliances combined, which could look like this:

3. Replace the Istari Alliance with a "Palantir Camber(s)" upgrade, which increases the vision of the fortress by the amounts that the Dunedain, Elven, and Istari Alliances combined, and would be visible on the fortress like the glow of the Istari Alliance.

Arnor Barracks:
Builds: 'Arnor Watchmen', 'Arnor Soldiers', 'Arnor Spearmen', 'Fornost Bladebearers', and researches the 'Swordsmanship' upgrade.

Hobbit House: (Removed)

Dunedain Camp:(Camouflaged when built near trees)
Builds: 'Arnor Rangers', 'Arnor Mounter Rangers', and researches the 'Archery' upgrade.

Elven Barracks: (Reduced in size)
Builds: 'Rivendel Riders', 'Mithlond Archers', 'Spearmen of the Havens', and researches the 'Silverthorn Arrows' upgrade.

Arnor Blacksmith:
Researches: the 'Forged Blades,' upgrade, the 'Heavy Armor' upgrade, the 'Fire Arrows' upgrade, and the 'Banner Carrier' upgrade.

Arnor Workshop: (renamed Arnor Siegeworks, could look like this:
)
Builds: Arnor Trebuchet, and researches the 'Flaming Munitions' upgrade.

Arnor Well: (Changed to look like this: )

Arnor Statue: (Changed to look more like this:
)

Arnor Wall Hub: (no changes)

Arnor Walls:
Upgrades: 'Gate', 'Arrow Tower', 'Wall Hub', and 'Wall Trebuchet' which could look like a flat-topped Wall Hub.

-New Structures-

Arnor Training Yards: (Structure cost: 1200 Resources), (which could look like this:
)
Builds: 'Arnor Archers', 'Cardolan Barrowguards', 'Annuminas Steelbowmen' and researches the 'Spearmanship' upgrade. Building costs either 1500 or 2000 Resources.

Arnor Beacon: (Structure cost: Same as Ithilien Outpost), (which could look like this:
)
Researches: Dunedain, Elven, and Istari Alliances. Can garrison 4 hordes. Costs 1400 Resources, and is found on the Builder's Palantir (like the Ithilien Outpost for the Gondor Builder)

--END--

--UNITS--

Dunedain Soldiers: (Renamed 'Arnor Soldiers', enlarge shield sizes)
Upgrades: 'Forged Blades', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 2 Arnor Barracks.

Dunedain Archers: (Renamed 'Arnor Archers')
Upgrades: 'Fire Arrows', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 1 Arnor Training Yards.

Arnor Royal Knights: (Removed)

Hobbits Shirifs: (Removed)

Hobbits with Pitchforks: (Removed)

Dunedain Rangers: (Renamed 'Arnor Rangers')
Changes: Replace the 'Longshot' ability with a 'Ambush Formation' ability (unlocked at lv.2) that has all rangers in the horde enter Aggressive Stance and form a ring and are invisible regardless of wether they are near trees or not. Canceled when horde is told to move.
Upgrades: 'Fire Arrows', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 1 Dunedain Camp.

Dunedain Mounted Rangers: (Renamed 'Arnor Mounted Rangers')
Upgrades: 'Fire Arrows', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 2 Dunedain Camp.

Dunedain Captain: (Removed)

Rivendel Lancers: (No changes)
Upgrades: 'Forged Blades', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 2 Elven Barracks.

Mithlond Spearmen: (Removed)

Mithlond Archers: (No changes)
Upgrades: 'Silverthorn Arrows', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 1 Elven Barracks.

Spearmen of the Havens: (Slight damage and armor increase)
Upgrades: 'Forged Blades', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 3 Elven barracks.

Imladris Captain (Removed)

-New Units-

Arnor Watchmen: (Unit cost: 100 Resources)
Description: Early-game unit. Can toggle between swords, bows, and spears. Very low armor, and moderately low damage.
Upgrades: Either the 'Archery', 'Swordsmanship', or 'Spearmanship' upgrades. Once upgraded, the horde becomes either an archer (equipped with bows, toggle ability is replaced with the 'Bombardment' ability) , swordsman (equipped with swords and shields, toggle ability is removed), or pikeman (equipped with spears, toggle ability is replaced with the 'Porcupine Formation' ability) horde, and receives a damage and armor bonus. Horde can also receive the 'Banner Carrier' upgrade only after receiving any of the other upgrades. Trained at: Lv. 1 Arnor Barracks.
Units could look like this:

Arnor Spearmen: (Unit cost: 100 Resources more then Soldiers)
Description: Mid-game Pikeman unit (without shields).
Upgrades: 'Forged Blades', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 2 Arnor Barracks.
Unit could look like this:


Fornost Bladebearers: (Unit cost: 1000 Resources)
Description: Elite Swordsman unit.
Upgrades: 'Forged Blades', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 3 Arnor Barracks.
Unit could look like this:


Cardolan Barrowguards: (Cost: 1150 Resources)
Description: Elite Pikeman unit. Horde can toggle between spears and swords.
Upgrades: 'Forged Blades', 'Heavy Armor', and 'Banner Carrier'. Trained at: Lv. 2 Arnor Training Yards.
Unit could look like this:


Annuminas Steelbowmen (Unit cost: 1600 Resources)
Description: Archer MHH.
Powers: 'Rally Archers' (Lv. 2, Increases the damage, range, and vision of nearby allied archers [passive ability]), Steel-headed Arrows (Lv. 7, Triple damage and knockback to targeted horde/hero/unit [120 seconds to recharge]). Trained at: Lv. 3 Arnor Training Yards.
Unit could look like this:

--END--

--HEROS--

Argeleb: (Reskin to look more like this:
)

Captain Carthian: (reskin)
Changes: Should require the 'Dunedain Alliance' to recruit.

Arvedui: (Reskin to look more like this:
)
Changes: Add the 'Mount/Dismount' ability at Lv. 2.

Arveleg: (Reskin to look more like this:
)
Changes: At level 10, when Arveleg uses his 'Palantir Smash' power, his 'Power of the Palantir' power should be unusable until 'Palantir Smash' finishes recharging. Also, when 'Palantir Smash' is used, it should damage 90% of Arveleg's health.

Elrond: (No changes)
Changes: Should require the 'Elven Alliance' to recruit.

Cirdan: (Removed)

-New Heros-

Glorfindel: (Hero cost: 3500 Resources)
Powers: 'Mount/Dismount' (Lv. 1), 'Elven Blade' (Lv. 3, Like 'Blade of purity' but can be used while mounted), 'Wind Rider' (Lv. 6), 'Elven Leadership' (Lv. 8, all nearby allied elven units receive +25% damage and armor and earn experience twice as fast, and are healed when not under attack [passive ability]), 'Elven Duress' (Lv. 10, all nearby enemy units have their damage, armor, and attack speed reduced by 50% [30 second duration, 260 seconds to recharge]).
Requires the 'Elven Alliance' to recruit.

--END--

--UPGRADES--

Archery:
Bought at: Lv. 3 Dunedain Camp.

Swordsmanship:
Bought at: Lv. 3 Arnor Barracks.

Spearmanship:
Bought at: Lv. 2 Arnor Training Yards.

Banner Carrier:
Bought at: Lv. 1 Arnor Blacksmith.

Forged Blades:
Bought at: Lv. 1 Arnor Blacksmith.

Heavy Armor:
Bought at: Lv. 2 Arnor Blacksmith.

Fire Arrows:
Bought at: Lv. 3 Arnor Blacksmith.

Flaming Munitions:
Bought at: Lv. 2 Arnor Siegeworks.

Silverthorn Arrows:
Bought at: Lv. 2 Elven Barracks.

--END--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone sees a problem, a mistake, or just needs clarification, please, just quote the part of the tech-tree in question and not the whole thing.
Thanks,
Eärendur

Edited by Eärendur, 26 April 2009 - 08:33 PM.

[Uruk King]

Well, I don't really have any problem with that list of awesome ideas but do Hourons really belong with Arnor?

Why is Cirdan removed? He was the leader of the Mithlind elves during the Angmar wars.

Also, with any luck, the trebs will be replaced with something more orienteered at infantry, like Onagers. Personally I don't really know where every one else stands in the whole Arnor struggle for power in relation to the other factions

[Atomic]

Eärendur, I see you liked my camouflaged Dunedain Camp idea! Right on, brother!

Awesome tech tree! I can see you and I feel similarly about the Arnor Fortress being on the weak side, structurally. I really like the Citadel Archers and Retaining Wall ideas!

But... but... no hobbits?

Edited by Atomic, 25 April 2009 - 11:22 PM.

[dojob]

Your ideas are good, but I don't think there should be more than 1 Arnor unit training building, and aside from the workshop and I'd prefer if the Arnor barracks worked like this:

lvl1:
Arnor Watchmen
-as u described

Banner Carriers upgrade (or perhaps at lvl2, idc)
lvl2:
Arnor Soldiers/Fornost Bladebearers
-current arnor soldiers, but with a price increase and some buffs.

Cardolan Barrowguards
-The origional unit u suggested, which can toggle between spears and bows and maybe could be weak against enemy archers because of their lack of shields, to compensate for their versatility.

*All of the Watchmen specialization upgrades come for free when u get to this level or have a small price tag.

lvl3:
Annuminas Steelbowmen
-MHH, limited to 1 horde, with the powers u suggested.



-Keep the Hobbits and maybe give them an ability to temporarily stealth and replace the rocks thrown by sherrifs with bows and arrows.

-Get rid of Mithlond Sentries and leave the rest of the Elf units as they are, aside from some balance changes.

-Leave all of the Dunedain units as they are, with maybe some balance changes and a sword toggle for rangers. As for the Dunedain Tent, you destroy trees to build it, so I think it should just be stealthed all the time or be upgraded to become stealthy.

-Add the beacon and fortress upgrades as u described, but get rid of the beacon's garrisoning ability and make it only cost around 350-500 resources so people can tech quickly. Maybe the Hobbits could also require an alliance upgrade to train, but the upgrade should only cost about 200 resources imo so they don't become completely useless by the time they're available. That way, you'd be forced to use Arnor units in the early game and by the time you get alliances, you're getting lvl2 barracks and your main force will still be Arnorians.


I think Arnor could be fairly independent if my changes are made since it can get not only basic infantry of all kinds, but elites that keep their armored human units viable later on in the game and would be used all the time, while your alliances fill certain niches and wouldn't all be used in every game.



I've always been and always will be very conservative and nitpicky with Arnor because I think they're already a wonderful faction and only some minor tweaks are needed imo so that Rob doesn't have to rework and rebalance the whole faction from scratch, but otherwise, I'm open to almost any hero or pp changes and I always liked the Beacon idea, and your fortress upgrades are also good btw

As for Arnor being UP, I think it's more of a matter of Mordor being OP thanks to their amazing nazgul, free orcs that give their owner PPs when killed, and an economy that's free to grow enormously thanks to those free orcs. Their catas are pretty nice too, iirc, and even though it's been a while since I played Mordor (or this mod in general for that matter :/ ), I've never lost with them online; I could even beat Yoda with them without too much trouble

[Dunedain Lord]

Well, I don't really have any problem with that list of awesome ideas but do Hourons really belong with Arnor?

Why is Cirdan removed? He was the leader of the Mithlind elves during the Angmar wars.

Also, with any luck, the trebs will be replaced with something more orienteered at infantry, like Onagers. Personally I don't really know where every one else stands in the whole Arnor struggle for power in relation to the other factions

Cirdan didnt fight in Arnor...........no?
he sent troops but not himself

and also, cardolan barrowguards should be heavily armored IMO. They should have spears and swords, no bows IMO.
No MEN cavalry? Ill be damned if there wasnt a single soldier in all of Arnor that rode on a horse onto the field of battle, brandishing a wicked
long spear or a halberd. Id love to see that. A man cavalry unit bearing huge halberds that chop everything in their path.

Edited by Yoda_, 26 April 2009 - 02:52 AM.
stop double posting, there's an edit button

[dojob]

Meh, but if you have heavy sword/spear togglers then wouldn't soldiers become redundant?

It'd be cool to have Arnor cav, but I don't think they're needed for gameplay imo when there's already Rivendell Riders...

[Sportfan704]

i just went through and read everything and agree with it all excepth three things
1. i think the watchmen should have their bowmanship etc uprgades on their palintir (like men of dunland torches) or at least not hav each upgrade bought at 3 diff buildings that cost over 1000 each
2. i think elrond should be replaced with glorfindel and keep cirdain
3. keep arnor cav but make them weak enough so wen the elven alliance is researched they are immediatley replaced with rivendel riders

[Anri1]

i just went through and read everything and agree with it all excepth three things
1. i think the watchmen should have their bowmanship etc uprgades on their palintir (like men of dunland torches) or at least not hav each upgrade bought at 3 diff buildings that cost over 1000 each
2. i think elrond should be replaced with glorfindel and keep cirdain
3. keep arnor cav but make them weak enough so wen the elven alliance is researched they are immediatley replaced with rivendel riders

I agree. And also do not replace Dunadain Captain. He should have bow/sword toggle and leadership(as elven captains have), and also mount/unmount to support mounted Dunadain rangers.

And also I agree with dojob, Rangers must have toggle and maybe the health increase at least to 350.

Btw I created a poll about Dunadain Rangers and there are 17 total votes. 6 votes - against the toggle, 10 votes - for the toggle (from this 10 votes 9 are for health encrease to 350-400), 1 vote is null. So...

Edited by Anri1, 26 April 2009 - 04:06 PM.

[Eärendur]

Eärendur, I see you liked my camouflaged Dunedain Camp idea! Right on, brother!

Awesome tech tree! I can see you and I feel similarly about the Arnor Fortress being on the weak side, structurally. I really like the Citadel Archers and Retaining Wall ideas!

But... but... no hobbits?

No. No Hobbits, but you do get to summon 3 hordes of each kind from the power-tree.

But as for the Dunedain Camp, either you could buy a structure stealth upgrade at the Dunedain Camp at Lv. 2, or the Camp could be camouflaged if there are at least, say, 5 trees within a small radius around the Camp.

Edited by Eärendur, 26 April 2009 - 08:42 PM.

[Eärendur]

I agree. And also do not replace Dunadain Captain. He should have bow/sword toggle and leadership(as elven captains have), and also mount/unmount to support mounted Dunadain rangers.

The reasons why I suggested to remove the Dunedain Captain are:
1. For now, he still doesn't have any power/abilities.
And 2. I didn't want Arnor to have to many units. So I removed the Imladris Captain and gave his Elves-only leadership power to Glorfindel. In the same way, instead of the D-Captain having a Dunedain Rangers (mounted and unmounted)-only leadership, Captain Carthian can have the Dunedain-only leadership. (He does require the Dunedain Alliance to train.)

[Uruk King]

Could Glorfindel's leaderhip come an an earlier level, he should be able to provide leadership bonuses to Elves as soon a possible.

[shadowcreature]

Something to consider. Bear in mind though the Arnor Elrond provides the function currently.