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Elven Siege Suggestions


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#21 Gfire

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 03:55 AM

I am very against Tom Bombadil as a Ring Hero. Besides the fact that the Ring has no effect on him, he never leaves his territory. He also has no connection to the Dwarves. :thumbsdownsmiley:

I'm working on a new ring hero system, though. I will allow the Ring to be given to any heroes you have, instead of a specific ring hero that gets unlocked. Isengard and Mordor will still use the old system, though, because no other heroes of those factions besides Sauron and Saruman would ever use the ring. They were actually looking for it in the story.

This would allow me to make both Beorn and Radagast as heroes, and you can use either as a Ring Hero. I'd need a few more Dwarf heroes to balance it, though. I don't want half the Dwarven faction heroes to be other races :unsure:

Edited by Gfire, 13 May 2009 - 03:59 AM.

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#22 Gfire

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:14 PM

Back to elven siege.

I hope to have a new siege-type system. I want units to be able to cut down trees and carry them around as rams... Not sure exactly how it will work yet but it will be more realistic and add another purpose for trees.

At any rate, this will be available for all factions except elves.

In general, rams will be the main siege weapon of the game. Some other siege weapons, like ladders and mines, which were mentioned in the books, will be kept also. Catapults and Ballista will probably go, though, with the possible exception of Fortress catapults (such as in Minas Tirith,) and other rock-throwing creatures, like Ents and Trolls.

Mines and Ladders (and maybe Mordor's towers) will be included as normal units. Ladders might be crafted on site but I don't think that would work very well. These will all only be available on fortress maps (making the ram the only siege weapon on normal maps).

Now I plan on making the Ents strictly summons, available to Men and Elves (and possibly Dwarves, though unlikely,) but I want some siege available for all factions without summoning. This puts Elves in a tight spot.

Here are my options from what I see:

1. Forget Evlen siege and make them rely on Ent summoning (unlikely)
2. Add Spellcaster siege units like in RJ-RotWK
3. Make Elves able to cut down trees for rams (unlikely)
4. Use some other siege weapon (suggestions, please)
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#23 mike_

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 12:10 AM

Just use Elven ballistae.

#24 Taralom

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:43 PM

Just a quick note:
You are aware of the fact that Gandalf is Maiar, and thus it makes no sense to have a power that is called Maia's Wrath, since there is only one?

Maiar's wrath would be more according to the lore, imo.

ontopic:
Elven Ballistae seems so... none-fitting. Ents won't do either, but some heroes could have got the powers to destroy fortresses and walls. Elrond had his ring, which he probably could use, but someone with more knowledge of the lore has to tell if that ring was powerfull enough to destroy structures ;)

Edited by Taralom, 08 June 2009 - 07:45 PM.

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#25 Gfire

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:47 PM

Catapults and ballastae are probably being removed. Maybe I wasn't clear about that.

Does that have any bases in lore, or anything, or is it just a cool idea?

Edit: I thought Maia was singular, and Maiar was plural.

Honestly, the heroes idea makes sense, as far as lore accuracy goes. However, I'm already altering it to make heroes less important. I don't really want you to rely on heroes to win, either. On a normal map this wouldn't really matter, as siege weaponry isn't really needed (except perhaps with the garrisonable towers, or something) but on fortress maps it would be really tricky playing as Elves... They just need one siege weapon.

Edited by Gfire, 08 June 2009 - 07:54 PM.

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#26 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 01:48 AM

Gfire is correct about the singular/plural situation... "Maia" is the singular while "Maiar" is the plural. Generally, if you take off the "r", you get the singular (see Noldor and Noldo, Valar and Vala, etc.) ;)

As for the hero situation, I'd have elves stick with conventional siege or ent-summons. Since you're trying to make matches less hero-dependent, giving heroes the power to tear down walls would work against that.
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#27 Elvenlord

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:05 AM

Maybe a hero who's only purpose is to bring down walls? Who? I don't know ;)

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#28 Florisz

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 11:04 AM

Now that would be original, Elven.
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#29 Taralom

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:09 PM

Gfire is correct about the singular/plural situation... "Maia" is the singular while "Maiar" is the plural. Generally, if you take off the "r", you get the singular (see Noldor and Noldo, Valar and Vala, etc.) :p

Ah, yes, you're correct. My mind got messed up at some point :facepalm:

On the siege-topic:

In the roman times the tools to take a city were mostly ladders, siege towers, onagers and mines. The latter worked by digging a tunnel and destroy the foundations of the wall from underneath.
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#30 mike_

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:55 PM

Catapults and ballastae are probably being removed. Maybe I wasn't clear about that.

Does that have any bases in lore, or anything, or is it just a cool idea?


Erm.. yeah, siege weapons were mentioned for multiple factions. In the Lord of the Rings alone, 'engines of war' were well-known to the Dunedain of the South who had their own on the walls of the Tower of Guard. The Morgul-host employed catapults and quasi-onager in the Great Siege of Minas Tirith, as well as 'blasting fires' in the battles for Osgiliath and the retreat through the Rammas Echor. These are similar to the 'fires of Orthanc' used by the host of Isengard in the Siege of Helm's Deep, which were known to Aragorn. In that same battle the besieging army used catapults and 'a hundred ladders' to assault the Wall.

In the Silmarillion, at the Siege of Gondolin, many 'foul machines and engine of war' were employed by both parties - the League of Gondolin and the Army of the North, under Gothmog Lord of Balrogs. The armies of Morgoth also fielded siege weaponry to some extent at their sieges of the Havens of Cirdan, the Fourth and Fifith Great Battles of Beleriand, and most likely many smaller conflicts.

However, the Noldor (those of Hithlum under Fingolfin's rule) seemed to have excelled over and beyond the skill of Morogth and his engineers, as during the Watchful Peace they were able to keep Bauglir's offensives down to such a level that the sheep and horses of the Noldor were able to graze in the shadows of Thangoradrim without fear of assault or dart.

There are more examples, but I can't be arsed to think of them right now.

Edited by mike_, 09 June 2009 - 03:15 PM.


#31 Gfire

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:13 PM

Thanks, everyone.

I believe it mentioned a ram at Helms Deep, didn't it? That is, a tree from the area used as a ram (unlike the prebuilt ones in the game and film).

At any rate, the rams will be used in general because they can be made on site out of trees... Other engines would be brought along, probably to be assembled, but still made out of custom cut pieces of wood and metal.

Still not sure exactly how to make this work in-game, but it's a start.

Are there any places where it actually mentions ballistae in the books? Or just catapults and the like?

Anyway, this being the case, the Elves might have ladders and ballistae, though probably not mines. These will all mainly be used for fortress maps, however (likely being only available in fortress maps) so the Elves are still a bit stuck. They should have an easy siege weapon that can be made on the spot like the rams... I can't really think of anything. It doesn't really make sense for the Elves to cut down trees, though.

Edit: Also, just to keep this in mind, the main focus of the Elves faction for me is the Mirkwood and Lothlorien Silvan Elves. They had the greatest recorded influence in the War of the Ring and I think that should be shown. So it's preferable to use engines of war of Lorien and Mirkwood in the faction if at all possible.

Edited by Gfire, 09 June 2009 - 04:19 PM.

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#32 mike_

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:39 PM

Yeah, there were 'two rams made from great trees, shod with iron and hurled aloft by tall Dunlendings' or something to that effect at the Battle of the Hornburg.

As for Elven siege - ballistae, ladders, and rams are your best bet. Nothing too flashy.

#33 Gfire

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:36 PM

Yeah, mines don't really fit for them... Maybe for Dwarves, though. I just don't like the idea of the Elves cutting down trees to use as weapons... ;) maybe it's best, though.
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#34 mike_

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:38 PM

For mines, do you mean explosives or tunnels?

#35 Gfire

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:17 PM

Explosives. ;)

But tunnels, too, for that matter.
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#36 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:37 PM

Thranduil's Halls were underground... ;)
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#37 Gfire

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:52 PM

That's true. Sorry, I meant tunnels would also be used for Dwarves. I didn't give it much thought for the Elves...

They need an anti-structure weapon, really, rather than a siege weapon. A Ballista will work well enough of fortress maps. They just need one anti-structure unit for normal skirmish battles. And with the lack of fire arrows, they really have a disadvantage against structures already.
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#38 mike_

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 03:25 PM

The Elves of Rhovanion weren't and shouldn't be a siege-heavy faction anyway. If anything their best bet in a siege would be allied Dwarven sappers and engineers... I smell a power :thumbsupsmiley:

Really though. I think they'd do best with an Ent Allies Summon, or something.

#39 Gfire

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 04:14 PM

Yeah... The way I'm doing it it's sorta separated into mini-factions... not really mini-factions, in the normal sense, but that's the best way I can think of to explain it at this time. Considering this, a Rivendell Ballista could be included, but generally only when your using Rivendell units... the way I have it, you also rely on Rivendell to get cavalry, so that should be fine as long as there's an Ent summon and the like. It'd still take the Elves longest to break a fortress. They really rely on Anti-unit tactics and probably have the weakest siege (that is, Ents are just about the strongest siege, but only available as a summon).
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#40 mike_

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 04:16 PM

That's probably best.




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