74 replies to this topic

[newplayerisin]

I PROBABLY SAY THAT MACEDONIAN IS NOT THE BEST IDEA . CRETAN ARE BETTER. AND I THINK THAT IF YOU WANT TO FIND MUSIC AND IDEAS AOM IS THE BEST.BECAUSE IT IS SAYING A LOT ABOUT OUR ANCIENT GREECE HISTORY
YES I AM FROM GREECE

[Gfire]

Well, not everything in AoM was accurate, but it is a good source of ideas.

I think it fit pretty well into Mycenaean Greece, though, which is, I think, what we're going for.

Edited by Gfire, 13 May 2009 - 03:15 PM.

[empireruler]

Should it be multiple factions/gods, or just one with units from the different polis thrown together?

[Gfire]

Well, I like the idea of the temples and different spellbooks. I think each god available should unlock the spellbook and a "unique" human unit. Not mythic unit, as that would be just like AoM. I think we all decided we wanted less mythology in it than AoM.

The unique unit would probably be an elite unit, and require a higher level temple. I guess they would be some type of religious unit. For balance purposes, one unit of each of three different types could be used for each god. For instance, one god could have an archer, one with a spearman, and one with a swordsman.

Edited by Gfire, 13 May 2009 - 03:38 PM.

[Lauri]

Let me just say this;

There is in no way a need to have a normal, elite, and a counter-X unit for every type of unit
When you make a faction, please try to make it have, either an overall balance, or a strength in some fields, and a weakness in another...
Being strong in all isn't overall balance for other factions
Having 3 different archers, 3 different melee units, and 3 different cavalry, and 3 different siege machines is just OP strength...

[Gfire]

Yeah.. it's not fun to play when you can't even get a horde of each type at a time, anyway, with CP limits.

[empireruler]

Should I wait until there is consensus reached on the units, before I post another tech tree with a lot less units, and Gods instead of nations?

[Gfire]

I don't know.

Maybe we should decide the overall structure first, and work out the specific units afterwards. Something like this:

1-2 Swordsmen
1-2 Spearmen
1-2 Archers
1-2 Cavalry
1-2 Siege
1 "Elite" (or god-specific, in this case)

More specifically, I was thinking

1 Swordsmen
2 Spearmen (pike and a spear)
2 Archers (bow and javelin)
1-2 Cavalry (i don't know about this,)
1-2 Siege
Elite unit.

With Specific units, this would look some like this. I'm just thinking them up, though, without reference.

Hypapist
Hoplite
Phalangite
Peltast
Toxotes
1-2 Cavalry (still don't know,)
1-2 Siege (??)
3 god-specific elite units (probably in small horde numbers like 3-6): A spearman, Archer and Swordsman

That's what I'm thinking.

[Nertea]

The only thing I would recommend is ensuring that all units stay useful at some point in the tech tree. The issue with having 2 of any "class" of unit is that the weaker version becomes obsolete eventually. If you had 2 spear-type units, what's to differenciate them from each other? Phanlangites and hoplites have roughly equivalent historical roles, the only difference is equipment, so you have to be creative.

You could do away with swordsmen for example maybe (historically the hypaspist was part of an elite division of the macedonian/selukid armies... and seems to be academically regarded as equipped in the same way as a hoplite. As far as I know the sword thing is from AoM). Make your hoplite unit optimized for fighting infantry, make your phalangite unit better suited for fighting cavalry. You preserve some degree of martial accuracy... probably a pike formation would be slightly better than a hoplite formation at disrupting cavalry, and it makes the faction a little more interesting.

Deploying a real tech tree is also more complicated than this. Do consider that there are no proper hoplite animations in the game - somebody will likely have to make edits if you want them to look "right". This is just an example... beacuse of BFME's limitations and how willing people are to learn hard stuff, complex things need to be looked at before saying "ooh, let's do X awesome thing"

Edited by Nertea, 16 May 2009 - 08:34 AM.

[Gfire]

Right... I was thinking the Hoplite and Phalangite would have very different roles. I don't know if Phalangite is the right word, though.

You could cut out the swordsman entirely, though. I hadn't thought of that.

Sorry, I was getting a little ahead of myself.

[Crusard]

More specifically, I was thinking

1 Swordsmen
2 Spearmen (pike and a spear)
2 Archers (bow and javelin)
1-2 Cavalry (i don't know about this,)
1-2 Siege
Elite unit.

I'd say 1 cavalry, and 2 siege (edited my list).
And for elite we'd have to decide wether they'll be god-dependant mythic units, or standard infantry units (like spartan elites).

Do consider that there are no proper hoplite animations in the game - somebody will likely have to make edits if you want them to look "right".

Can't we use some pikeman's animation?

[Gfire]

Not mythic units... That's exactly what we decided against. We wanted it to be less mythological than AoM, right? Well that's exactly what AoM is like. God-specific Mythic units and Spells.

I don't think there are any shield and spear anims, though... I can't think of any.

One cavalry would probably be good. I think Greece would probably be infantry-based.

Edit: I guess if you limited the numbers of the Mythic units it would be better. Then you couldn't get your whole army made up of them. That's what I always did as Greeks in AoM. I would just make a bunch of Minotaurs or Cyclopes. They were strong against everything except heroes in that game.

Edited by Gfire, 16 May 2009 - 08:52 PM.

[Elvenlord]

Bfme1 tower guards. They're still in the bfme2 files, if you want to use them. I've put them in myself before

[Gfire]

Oh year. They're a little stiff for hoplites, I think, but should do, at least until someones makes some new ones.

A shield bash would be a great attack variation for them.

[Nertea]

Hoplites historically use an overhand thrust

[Crusard]

I guess if you limited the numbers of the Mythic units it would be better. Then you couldn't get your whole army made up of them. That's what I always did as Greeks in AoM. I would just make a bunch of Minotaurs or Cyclopes. They were strong against everything except heroes in that game.

Of course these would not be cheap ^^
If we are to include myth units there would have to be more than one, I'm not sure there's a single one representative of the greek mithology. Maybe a titan instead? (like a huge unit that has really slow anim scales )

Or we could keep mythological units for summon powers only, though it would be better if we could show off the models on standard units too

Hoplites historically use an overhand thrust

So much for accuracy in the mod

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

The BFME Easterlings are more suitable and their animation wouldn't be that tough to edit.

[Crusard]

BFME's easterlings are BFME2's mordor lancers, right? The ones from the inn who throw spears...?

[Lauri]

That's Haradrim Lancers... I guess, been to long since BFME2

[Elvenlord]

Blargh. I wouldn't go with easterlings. I despise their animations, especially how much they lean over.
But that's just me, so whatever.