Is God the "good guy"?
#1
Posted 18 May 2009 - 04:30 AM
Those with squeamish ideologies turn back before it's too late
We've all heard the stories of the bible and most of us have read a few. As a fan of the good book, I trust what it says... but as a zombie I can't help but to argue the logic behind it all. Even though you might be Atheist, assume the bickering of the bible is real for a moment and help find the logic behind it all.
Notice how most... if not all of the stories of the bible mentioning God doing more harm than good. My first piece of evidence is the story pf Jobe. God takes everything away from this man and even kills people to prove a point to the devil. The devil also plays a wicked roll by forcing Jobe to cut himself with a piece of pottery.
My second piece of evidence is Exodus. God demands things from Mosses' deciples and yet they still refuse. In the end God ends up killing his deciples and Mosses has to even ask god to stop at times. But those people had to follow the words of the priests, Mosses, and Aaron who got words from God in a room filled with incense and an big golden Ark. Didn't they have the right to doubt, and besides, did they have to be killed for it?
Another piece of evidence is Cain and Able. God rejects the many offerings of Cain and will take the offerings of Able. Out of spite, the young and unaware Cain kills Able. Worse than death... God places a horrible curse on Cain and exiles him. How was Cain supposed to know what was a proper sacrifice and what was a proper means of solving problems? He was one of the first humans for gosh darn sake, practically a barbarian.
Another piece of starting evidence the tower of Babel. A king wants to unite the world under one massive tower. He brings people from all around the world, making slaves out of some, and builds a tower to bring the new world's population together. God just destroys the thing after years of work and confuses the languages of the world. My first question is why God decides to destroy it after hundreds of years of work and why he chose to solve the problem this way.
My last for now is the parting of the Red Sea, perhaps my strongest point. God says not to kill or cause harm onto others, but what god does is unmistakably evil by his own terms. Mosses escapes Egypt and God gives him the power to part the Red Sea. The Pharaoh and his army is held back by a pillar of fire. When the Hebrews with Mosses nearly escape through the river bed, the pillar disappears and the Pharaoh's army is released onto them. They go through the Red Sea's parting, and right when they are all within it, God shuts the parting. He kills all of the Egyptians when it was clear he did not need to.
It seems the main way god solves his problems is by destroying or killing... or in some cases causing suffering worse than death. He has made a flood that consumed the earth, destroyed Egypt with fire and plagues, turned the Nile into blood for goodness sake, something 100% not something a good guy would do, caused earth quakes that kill thousands, break down cities, kill men for being mislead by false religions, and a whole list of things. I am not saying the Devil is a good guy either (Although he has been more passive than God in the bible's history), but I am putting God on trial. Can anyone clarify this mess once and for all (For Revora at least).
#2
Posted 18 May 2009 - 09:53 AM
However, your main point seems to be that God cannot be benevolent if he causes so many deaths, regardless of which part of the Bible he does it in. What surprises me is that you left out the Flood. God wiped out the entire world because absolutely everyone, but for Noah's family and friends, was a sinner. Absolutely everyone on Earth. Of course. Think how many good people must have died there just so God could start over.
What I think you're noticing is the different demands of religion during different periods of history. Three thousand years ago religion was designed to keep the few at the top and the many at the bottom, like in Egypt. Then later on, along came Jesus and changed the message and got crucified for his trouble, but Jesus is what Christianity is all about, so when taught as a Christian you are taught about Jesus's message, not the wrathful, vengeful God of the Old Testament, the one who torments his followers to prove a point to the Devil and wipes out entire armies just to save a few scrawny beardy dudes. Hence, Christianity doesn't give you the full story about your god. He's a bastard too. Maybe that was just when he was younger, a more hot-blooded deity with a plentiful supply of youthful arrogance and everything to prove.
#3
Posted 18 May 2009 - 09:54 AM
Edited by Nertea, 18 May 2009 - 09:55 AM.
I really don't do requests and my Arnor Soldier is not fit for BFME. Don't ask me for either.
#4
Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:07 AM
The bible is written by humans, not by god himself.
The stories are allegories in which people tried to express the experiences with god. Besides the stories are thousands of years old and were translated over a hundred times. So I think you shouldn't hang up on the details. The basic message is, what matters.
As for Cain and Abel: You said it yourself, they were some of the first humans. But then who wrote their story?
The whole genesis story was written in the time of the babylonian exile, as I remember it right. The young christians tried to prove their believe among the babylonian gods, so they expressed their thoughts about how the world was created. The banishment of Cain should show that god doesn't want his children to kill each other.
The story of Jobe only shows that you will always be rewarded, if your faith stays strong. As I remember the ending right, Jobe gets everything back what he has lost. God even doubles his belongings.
The story of the tower of Babel should only explain, why there are different languages in the world I think. There is no further meaning for me.
And the parting of the red sea...
Honestly in my opinion the death of the egyptians was just a little "joke" from a translator or even one of the many writers. He or she simply thought: "Wow, wouldn't it be really cool, if the bad guys get killed for enslaving the jews?"
The true essence of the exodus is for me: With god on your side, everything is possible and no enemy will stop you.
My two cents. ^^
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."
-J.R.R. Tolkien-
"Obstacles are those terrible things you see when you take your eyes off your goals."
-Unknown-
#5
Posted 18 May 2009 - 02:08 PM
God, if he/she/they exists, is beyond good or evil. I suggest you don't piss him off.
My political compass
There's a story that the grass is so green...what did I see? Where have I been?
#6
Posted 18 May 2009 - 04:46 PM
Trying to hold on...
#7
Posted 19 May 2009 - 03:16 AM
Yea, that's another point. Why would people portray God as a destructive force that will create things just to destroy them? I know the bible asks men to fear God like Yoda said, but God does define good from evil and yet crosses the line at times. The 10 commandments and the 7 deadly sins sets the boundary from what is right and wrong, but God himself does not follow the big "Don't kill" one. I know... he's God and all, so why would he follow his own rules?The bible is written by humans, not by god himself.
#8
Posted 12 October 2009 - 01:33 AM
Whatever God does he can undo EASILY !
He can kill 10000000 in a Flood ..So what
These same are then Present before his Throne and the books are opened ..
You see alot of dead bodies
They see themselves in heaven wishing they were better when they had the chance
God sees the Future Creation where everyone is alive and All sorrow is GONE ...
Your Grandmother Dies and you are Sad
She is happy to be done with a life of suffering ,surrounded by angels
She wishes you were with her ..But your time is not yet
=============================================================
What you don't know ....
God made all Decisions in the Beginning
Then an Angel said why you not me
Then man said Why You not Me
Why : Knowledge of Good and Evil brings sorrow which brings death
So all Knowledge was in a fruit ,the plan was to get man to 'choose' to Obey or dis-obey
i.e want to be like God ,want to replace God ,Think that This friut was something Great and Special
so that God will be Proven Right and Everyone else wrong...
They had Life Fruit - Immortal God Bodies / Child Mind
They had Knowlege Fruit - God mind / Mortal Bodies
They ate and sorrow and death came ...
Why : Man must now prove himself worthy of return ...A hard Task !!!
The Angel Laughed ...,He now has control of the SYSTEM until a LEVEL 7 man comes..
He is a Level 6 and he knows only a level 7 can beat him ...
So every 2000 years a CHOSEN ONE is called to try to beat the level 6
Lord Ram , Lord Krishna , Lord Noah , Lord Abrahim , Lord Moses , Lord Jesus
6 Chosen Lord Gods (El Adonai) Try to Break the 7 Seals
=======================================================
7 seals were given to the race of men for their Righteous Teaching ,
But they were all of them Unworthy
For in secret the Good Lord El Shaddai Forged a MASTER SEAL
And into this seal he poured his Justice , His Love
And His will to Dominate All Life upon MiddleEarth
ONE SEAL TO RULE THEM ALL .........
I have no Equal ,
I do as I Please ,
My own Wisdom is my Councilor ,
And I alone shall inherit the Kingdom Of Heaven
Edited by JUS_SAURON, 12 October 2009 - 01:38 AM.
#9
Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:02 AM
#10
Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:23 AM
#11
Posted 12 October 2009 - 03:01 AM
#12
Posted 12 October 2009 - 09:23 AM
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
--/--
Anyway, anyone who can argue God is in any way 'good' after reading the OT is delusional. The only reason Christians think he's good is because they've read the NT and think that's the way of it, but in fact notice that God is pretty much silent throughout. It's just Jesus. Therefore, Christians rather defy one of the 10 commandments right there.
The Islamo-Judeo-Christian God is actually essentially the same. Same stories, by-and-large the same book, same commandments, same vengeful spoiled-kid-with-a-magnifying-glass mentality. As for why it works, fear is a powerful motivator. People will go along with stuff if threats are made on their life. Especially threats that they cannot counter (why do terrorists hold unarmed people at gunpoint? They can take lives and the hostages cannot stop them). The implied eternal damnation, hellfire and punishment for things God doesn't like but which are all actually quite natural survivalist traits is enough. Beyond that, there's Stockholm Syndrome. If you sit under the thumb long enough, you eventually come to 'love' it. Sure, Stockholm Syndrome disappears when removed from the situation, but when you consider that God's supposed to be all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful, the situation never disappears.
When you think about it, the clergy are pretty good psychologists, no?
That's, of course, assuming I believed that he existed. Even if he did, I would refuse to worship on principle. James Froude says my feelings on the matter quite well: "I would sooner perish for ever than stoop down before a Being who may have power to crush me, but whom my heart forbids me to reverence."
#13
Posted 12 October 2009 - 06:18 PM
Define good and evil with non-human comparisons.He's Neutral, as not even the opposite of Lucifer. God is the 'just here to monitor' and does good and evil to keep the balance. Jesus is the good guy, the opposite of Lucifer. Though he does vandalize a few times.
#14
Posted 12 October 2009 - 06:48 PM
That which one society considers laudable its members consider 'good'. For example, the Aztecs offered human sacrifices to their gods in return for the strength to vanquish foes, for good harvests, and for bountiful conquests. An Aztec emperor who offered many such sacrifices was considered 'good' by their moral codification.
If I were to offer even one human sacrifice, I would be met with horror and revulsion. Although it might depend on who I was going to sacrifice. I expect a few members of this forum might turn a blind eye if I were to offer 2play.
Let's look at a different example. A more historically-accurate one, perhaps.
Genghis Khan. Mongol Emperor. United all the tribes, then went on to forge the single biggest uninterrupted landmass controlled by any human being ever, stretching from the Chinese border with Korea in the East to the Austrian border. Within twenty years. That man is generally regarded as one of the greatest leaders of men in history, yet he is personally responsible for the wanton slaughter of over fourteen million people. In the 1200s. Mostly civilians in cities he besieged. If you got the black tent outside your town, you were dead. No questions asked. He might leave twenty survivors to go and spread word of his handiwork. Invented currency, written documents, code of laws, tax exemptions for religious figures, teachers, doctors, religious tolerance, legal equality of women, an increase in communication between western powers, the middle east and Asia. Generally, he's only considered evil by the Iraqis, Iranians and some areas of Afghanistan. Not that anyone outside of those nations views them any differently.
Adolf Hitler. Leader of the Third Reich of Nazi Germany. Brought Germany out of its massive economic meltdown in three or so years after an election of dubious legitimacy, invaded and united Austria, the Sudetenland, Liechtenstein, etc. Then invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, the Netherlands, France and much of the rest of central Europe. Personally responsible for the slaughter of six million jews. Generally regarded as one of the most evil people in history, yet his regime is responsible for a number of things upon which our world relies. Such as motorways, widespread rocketry, jet engined aircraft, cheap and efficient motor vehicles, anti-tobacco movements (Eberhard Schairer and Erich Schoniger proved almost unquivocally in 1943 that tobacco smoking was highly carcinogenic, a full decade before the British and Americans reached a similar conclusion), modern medical care (including, among other things: clean water supply, removal of lead and mercury from consumer goods, and breast cancer screening), environmentalism and animal rights.
Black and grey morality, huh?
#15
Posted 12 October 2009 - 08:52 PM
#16
Posted 12 October 2009 - 11:19 PM
Unless I have a Flying Horse with a Flaming Sword .....
I cannot yet authorize the release of Kingdom Knowledge During the Age of the 6th Lord God
Edited by JUS_SAURON, 12 October 2009 - 11:30 PM.
#17
Posted 13 October 2009 - 12:32 AM
Trust me, we welcome reasonable discussion. Sadly, that's just not what we tend to get from most believers on the forum. It usually falls into either of those 2 above categories, or the obligatory "you're insulting my beliefs" when all we're doing is questioning them.
The "you'll burn in hell" comment tends to result in the inevitable flame, because we take exception to the attitude that we will suffer for thinking differently when in fact nobody who says such words has ever for a moment contemplated the possibility that they themselves are wrong, whereas I can unequivocally state that pretty much every atheist/agnostic who posts a counter to it has questioned their beliefs at some point. (This blind faith explains why we don't like the second category ). I myself adhere to the following quote as best I am able:
"A person has no religion who has not slowly and painfully gathered one together, adding to it, shaping it; and one's religion is never complete and final, it seems, but must always be undergoing modification." ~ D. H. Lawrence
What you perceive to be a flame war is just the fact that people on the pro-religious side are hopelessly outnumbered. If someone could come up with unequivocal proof of God's existence, I'd convert tomorrow. And no, the Bible isn't proof.
Second, your bit about the flying horse and flaming sword is exactly what I'm talking about with the religion of fear tactics that are commonly used. If God popped by with money for the poor and such, rather than the fire and brimstone, I think people might be more open to persuasion. But when all you get is *boom boom boom boom* "ROW, YOU BASTARDS!", they are either subdued by it through fear or a wedge is driven that makes you more averse to it on principle.
Lastly...I honestly don't know what your last sentence means. Maybe your translator messed up?
#18
Posted 13 October 2009 - 02:09 AM
Lucifer was unjustly punished for refusing to bow down to a bunch of hairless apes.
Jesus was a homosexual.
Priests rape altar boys.
Jews have big noses.
Organized religion is bullshit.
I shit on eggs.
Thought I'd have that here to save time.
#19
Posted 13 October 2009 - 02:15 AM
Your willpower is epic. Just epic.*Writes on blackboard*
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
I will resist the temptation to pull post number 8 apart and feed each individual scrap to the crows.
--/--
God is malevolent.
Lucifer was unjustly punished for refusing to bow down to a bunch of hairless apes.
Jesus was a homosexual.
Priests rape altar boys.
Jews have big noses.
Organized religion is bullshit.
I shit on eggs.
Edited by True Lord of Chaos, 13 October 2009 - 02:17 AM.
Hello everyone. I am back.
#20
Posted 13 October 2009 - 02:25 AM
Edited by Caspa, 13 October 2009 - 02:28 AM.
Thought I'd have that here to save time.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users