40 replies to this topic

[Phil]

I don't get it. You want to turn Revora into a club? Like a soccer-club, with the difference that soccer is turned into online-gaming enhancements and other online stuff?

Basically, yes.

Read, reread, reread again, and finally understood. Go for it.

I don't get it. You want to turn Revora into a club? Like a soccer-club, with the difference that soccer is turned into online-gaming enhancements and other online stuff? unsure.gif

I'm not too familiar with the definition of "association", i guess.

Yeah, so this way people like MM aren't legally responsible for Revora.
Example) If Revora gets sued or something, only the association itself can lose money or get in trouble, and not the members/current owners. At least that's how I understood it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed, that's the point. However, protection through the legal body is kind of thin, so if you do extensive copyright infringement, etc. they might still come after you as a private person. We do look a lot more professional as an association though so that might be some kind of deterrent.

[Archon]

I definitely support this, well done guys.

[Duke]

About time lol. But a question: By association members...is that not just a Revora 'Board of Trustees'?

I mean you said they are involved in strategic planning. That's hardly a task for 50% of the community members that become association members? Sure you have things like an AGM, where members can vote on general running but..strategic planning? That's not the association members' job.

Also is it really appropriate for a community that's only official language is English to come under an entity where everything, including the legalities are in German?

Edited by Duke, 13 October 2009 - 12:09 AM.

[True Lord of Chaos]

Go for it as long as it won't affect me.

[Digz]

Go for it as long as it won't affect me.

Don't be so selfish, it's nothing bad but even if it was, it wouldn't just affect you, it would affect everyone else, your a staff member, therefore you think about Revora as a whole not just about you.

Anyway, you have my blessing

[aNaRcHiSt44]

I fully support this.
I'm half-versed in legal stuff, and I can honestly say this is a good idea.
Go for it

[Ash]

Until now, we're in a somewhat foggy legal situation in terms of ownership and finances. Basically everybody owns whatever he contributed (forum posts, code and graphics for our sites, literary pieces, domain names, and so on).

So who owns what, in a new system? I ask this because am strongly opposed to you having ownership over anything a member writes on the forum, or any literary or artistic work that they create. I am opposed to Revora attempting to claim ownership over, say, a mod that is hosted. If the site is a division or whatever you are calling them now, then fair enough but if it is content created by a client (what is referred to here as a 'hostee', but the two terms are effectively interchangeable), then no. Revora shouldn't hold any ownership rights over such because it would legally bind them to remain with you even if they are dissatisfied with your service.

I may have read too far into this, but I'm only looking out for your clients to ensure that they're fully informed as to what is and is not theirs.

[Bart]

So who owns what, in a new system? I ask this because am strongly opposed to you having ownership over anything a member writes on the forum, or any literary or artistic work that they create. I am opposed to Revora attempting to claim ownership over, say, a mod that is hosted. If the site is a division or whatever you are calling them now, then fair enough but if it is content created by a client (what is referred to here as a 'hostee', but the two terms are effectively interchangeable), then no. Revora shouldn't hold any ownership rights over such because it would legally bind them to remain with you even if they are dissatisfied with your service.

Heh, I told DLotS that he should explicitly make this clear, but I guess he forgot
But no, we will not "own" (read: have copyright over) everything that is posted on the forum, hosted on our server, etc. This is:
1. Not what we want
2. Even if we wanted it, not legally possible, because copyright can only be transferred from the original author by
a. a legally binding contract
b. or legal employment (with a contract)

We will however put the server contract and registered domain names (for our sites, not for hostees) in the name of the association. Right now they are owned by several individuals, making Revora depend on all of those individuals.

[Ash]

Ah. That's all right, then.

[Phil]

We will, however, edit the ToS and require people to grant Revora an irrevocable usage right for at least some contributions. We don't want 2play stepping in after 2 years and asking Revora to remove all of the code he contributed, for example.

Edited by Dark Lord of the Sith, 14 October 2009 - 03:58 PM.

[Phil]

About time lol. But a question: By association members...is that not just a Revora 'Board of Trustees'?

Speaking in legal terms: no. The board of trustees would be what I called "the board".
Think of it more as a parliament which elects its own members. A democratic oligarchy, if you will.

I mean you said they are involved in strategic planning. That's hardly a task for 50% of the community members that become association members? Sure you have things like an AGM, where members can vote on general running but..strategic planning? That's not the association members' job.

Who said 50% of the community members will be association members? No, just a small circle (though possibly expanding over time) should be association members. Seeing as they hold all the power in the end, long-term strategic planning also rests in their hands. It would then be the job of the board to transform that into medium- and short-term strategies and make sure those are executed.

Also is it really appropriate for a community that's only official language is English to come under an entity where everything, including the legalities are in German?

Fair point, but in fact only the binding legalities will need to be in German. A document which we will translate to the best of my ability obviously.
This works in other places as well, for example KDE, which is an international project formed as a legal association in Germany. I really don't believe this will be a major problem....

[Archon]

So anyone could be part of the board?

[Ash]

Theoretically? Yes. In practice, probably not.

@Dlots: So long as we can reserve the right to do anything we want with anything explicitly ours (as in, not for Revora's direct infrastructural benefit - a piece of webcode would be for Revora's direct infrastructural benefit, and was contributed for Revora) if we so choose. Although the correct response, I suppose, would be for you to advise members to post their own usage restrictions on things they produce and publish via Revora in future.

[Phil]

So anyone could be part of the board?

Well, only the people who are members of the association, obviously. But of those, anyone is eligible.

@Dlots: So long as we can reserve the right to do anything we want with anything explicitly ours (as in, not for Revora's direct infrastructural benefit - a piece of webcode would be for Revora's direct infrastructural benefit, and was contributed for Revora) if we so choose. Although the correct response, I suppose, would be for you to advise members to post their own usage restrictions on things they produce and publish via Revora in future.

I'm not sure, I think we'd go with a less extreme version of what most major news sites that allow contributions do: just require a perpetual, irrevocable usage right. That means whatever material you posted can remain here forever. We would not claim ownership of the intellectual property though and neither would we reserve the right to republish it, sell it, etc.
However, that discussion is only indirectly related to that of creating an association. The details of the ToS will need to be discussed and decided on at a later point.

[Ash]

Only indirectly related, maybe, but it clearly has a knock-on domino effect on the intellectual property rights each forum-member has over his or her contributions. As it stands currently that is not an issue because Revora is little more than a loose collection of individuals with a website. Anything that has the potential to alter the rights a user holds ought to be viewed holistically, and with that potential in mind.

I'm not saying you're out to gobble everyone's IP. Far from it. I'm simply saying that it ought to be explored more readily now, because if you only explore it after this has all gone ahead fully, it will then be too late and the potential is there for you to have many pissed-off individuals feeling their IP has been stolen. Where complex jargonistic legal bullshit is concerned, I would implore you to remain totally transparent and dumb it down to the simplest terms so nobody is under any illusions as to where they stand. They can then make an informed and rational decision as to whether they wish to remain in this new legal environment. I dare say that most/all will, but legally the option to opt-out of any changes to the TOS ought to be there as you're making the switchover. And those changes need to be as clear as crystal so nobody can come bite you in the ass later, should that eventuality arise.

I don't foresee for a moment that it will, but if you're going to go this far to cover your legal asses, it makes sense to cover it from all angles.

[Phil]

Like I said, this is another discussion and not directly related to the forming of an association. We could do this step and not change the ToS at all. It's merely a logical consequence of the direction we're going.

As such, I'm postponing this discussion to a point where it actually becomes relevant. One step at a time.

[Spectre]

Could you go into detail of rights and/or freedoms this entity will strip the common contributor of? Will the association have any rights to the forum, or will this association only be concerned and/or allowed to maintain, regulate, and control the Network, server, and any other body of Revora separate from the forum and all of it's contributing members and Intellectual property?

Will the Member Assembly have any regulation or say in the election of Forum Moderators/Administrators/other staff maintaining and policing any body of he forum?

[Phil]

Could you go into detail of rights and/or freedoms this entity will strip the common contributor of?

None.

Will the association have any rights to the forum, or will this association only be concerned and/or allowed to maintain, regulate, and control the Network, server, and any other body of Revora separate from the forum and all of it's contributing members and Intellectual property?

The association will obviously own the forum, just like any other network site (except for hosted projects), and hold all intellectual property except for user contributions (i.e. the large part of what this forum consists of).

Will the Member Assembly have any regulation or say in the election of Forum Moderators/Administrators/other staff maintaining and policing any body of he forum?

No, our current plan is to only let the assembly elect the NLs and let those run the show more or less like now.

[Vortigern]

So basically, this will all change absolutely nothing about practical Revora, but it will grant abstract Revora legal status? Sound about right?

[Phil]

Yeah, more or less. What it does is grant Revora a little more security and it should shift the power balance in the background away from individuals more to the collective (tell me again why I'm in favour of this ).