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#1 khamulrulz

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 08:21 AM

I think that the inn system should be changed to units that factions would make alliances with. they should also be unique for each faction, and there should be a couple heroes as well. people should actually want to capture inns. also, because each faction has their own identity of inn-units, you won't have morgul orcs or uruk scouts running around for factions they don't belong to (they don't seem like inn units anyway) also, i am annoyed that i can't get dwarven veterans at an inn because i don't have a forge. these are just ideas for this proposed new inn system(not everything is balanced), and if this does get into the final game, i think there will just be three units and two heroes for each faction inn.

Men of the West could have hobbits, druedain scouts (with poisoned arrows), lossoth spearmen (they helped arvedui, and had contact with the rangers at the time of the war of the ring.... its not that much of a long shot. rhudaur spearmen model), men of the southern fiefdoms (lossarnarch axemen, knights of dol amroth), and rangers of the north (bow/sword toggle). possible heroes are merry, pippin, halbarad, erkenbrand, elfhelm, and imrahil.

Elves could have woodmen hunters, mirkwood axemen (silvan elves used axes), and an elite unit from the grey havens. possible heroes are sam, cirdan, elladan, and elrohir.

Dwarves could have beornings, a light unit from the blue mountains, an archer unit from dale or esgaroth, and possibly a unit from dorwinion (brand's realm stretched close to there, and they traded with them). heroes could include bilbo (no longer fortress hero), frodo, and grimbeorn

Men of the East could have Mahud bludgeoners, Rhunnic tribesmen (the grim, short, bearded ones with axes that held the northern road to Minas Tirith), mercenary cavalry from khand, and a corsair unit from umbar. heroes could include one from umbar, as well as a leader of the bearded grim easterlings.

Mordor could have slave drivers (leadership bonus), orc scouts, black numenorean riders (mouth of sauron was escorted by a company of black numenoreans to the black gate), and hill-trolls of gorgoroth (small battalion of three, not as strong as attack trolls). heroes include grishnakh, mollock (not fortress hero) and black numenorean captain

Moria could have alpha wargs (they will be replaced in the main faction by a wolf pack), spider riders or spiderlings (if they get removed from the main faction), and Goblin-town brutes (half-troll swordsmen model, great goblin's guard). heroes could include someone from gundabad, as well as a fire drake.

Isengard could have dunland riders, dunland pillagers, ruffians, and half-orcs. heroes include a dunland hero, and bill ferny, and maybe lotho sackville-baggins.

Edited by khamulrulz, 15 October 2009 - 08:33 AM.

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#2 Archon

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 11:16 AM

:) Wow, that must have taken forever to type...

I like most of your suggestions, they're well thought out. However, I don't like the idea of Druedain scouts, who didn't really play a major part in movies or books and weren't really allied with Men of the West anyway. You'd also have to change the name of the Woodman Hunters, because they happen to be Elves. Wood Hunters would do just fine.

When you say hill-trolls, I assume you mean the Olog-hai that appeared in the Battle of the Black Gate. Perhaps they could scrounge up some CaH models for that... ;)

Also, it's technically illegal to use things from RotWK in S.E.E., since it's only a BFME2 mod, but Naz has used stuff before from there so I suppose he could do it again.
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#3 khamulrulz

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 12:42 PM

well, for the woodmen hunters, i was thinking of the men who lived in mirkwood, south of thranduil's realm but north of dol guldur. they're related to the beornings. when forces of dol guldur invaded mirkwood and lorien, i think they probably aided the elves, and were later given the middle of mirkwood as their own in the 4th age.

and yeah the druedain and lossoth didn't play a huge role, in terms of fighting anyway. motw already have hobbits, lossarnarch axemen, knights of dol amroth, and rangers of the north to choose from, so it's no biggy. :)
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#4 Nazgûl

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 04:03 PM

Thanks for posting in the right subforum, first of all =)
Secondly, we did revamp the Inns a bit for Beta 4.5 as we changed the standard setup into units that your faction don't have, but still would have alliances with. This was a nice improvement, but I guess we could develop it further and maybe we could place some units, like Captain Jackson etc in these structures, even if not all maps have them. The problem is that I'm not really that keen on adding millions of units. It's VERY hard to make them stand out as anything special than just another different looking model. And they take TIME to do... so. This wont happen any time soon. And certainly not for the next beta. Maybe later in production... me might polish this bit further. Nice suggestions though :)

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#5 Gfire

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:10 PM

Just to throw my opinion in, I hate the complex inn systems, like in RJ. It's just too confusing and messy. I like just a few units and a minor hero will do, I guess. Maybe an alliance choice to unlock a few units would be fine, but no levels or complex upgrade systems.

All just my opinion, of course.
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#6 Nazgûl

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 08:28 PM

That, we won't have... ^_^
RJ is a lovely and VERY advanced mod, but the gameplay is TOO advanced in my taste. Still a masterpice though, in terms of modding. Just a little over the top IMO :good:

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#7 yams in a can

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 02:02 AM

For an inn system, I think the units in it should make sense. I don't believe hobbits would fight with Gondor. Gondor's inn units should be Rohirrim, but that's a problem because they are in the same faction. The other one I can think of is the Dunedain, but much more spread out. The dunedain that met with Aragorn had spears, and they mounted horses to meet with Aragorn. The dwarves could have the Beornings, Mirkwood Elves, or Celduin River units.

Elves could have Dunedain, not sure what else. Mordor could have the most because they had a lot of allies.

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#8 Downfall

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:08 AM

Well for Gondor, I think the Knights of Dol Amroth could work as their Inn units. A specialty calvary wouldn't be too bad in my opinion.
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#9 khamulrulz

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 07:14 AM

i think after gondor and rohan split in 4.8 (still to be confirmed), knights of dol amroth would serve gondor well as an anti-hero cavalry unit
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#10 Uruk King

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 06:33 PM

I thought I might post a few in unit suggestions, if no one minds.

Gondor:
Southern Fiefdoms - Everything, KoDA, Dol Amroth Soldiers, Morthond Vale Bowmen, Lossarnach Axemen, Pelargir Spearmen, Imrahil

Rohan (assuming the change is brought about) :
Westfold - Westfold Soldiers, Helms Deep Javelins, Helm's Shields (Though defensive spearmen), Erkenbrand

Dwarves:
Blue Mountains - Lightly armoured, faster dwarves, armed with bows,who also provide a few building upgrades, Dwalin

Elves:
Anduin Vales - Woodmen Hunters, Beornings, Radagast, Beorn

Mordor:
Dol Guldur - Khamul and two of the Nazgul, castellans, Fortress Guards (heavily armoured Orcs of Dol Guldur), Forest orcs (slightly more powerful orcs who can stealth in trees), Rhun Men (special Mannish forces who served Khamul when he ruled Dol Guldur), Wargs

Isengard:
Dunland - Wild men Raiders, Dunland Horsemen, Ruffians ()

Moria:
Gundabad - stronger orc warriors and defensive spearmen.

Rhun:
Khand - Powerful warriors horsemen

Thats all I can think of for now.
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#11 Predi

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 06:58 PM

Inn system is something that's worth some thinking.
I think the inns could contain unit, that is specialized in some way, so it's worth capturing, and preventing enemy from capture it first. And the recruitable unit should be far away from that faction. I mean geologically. Or different from that faction by race, or by looks.

My thoughts:

Mordor -> Corsairs + captain Jackson (strong against buildings + pillage ability +way faster than the slow orcs)
Isengard -> Dunlandings (strong against buildings + pillage)
Erebor -> Dale soldiers (strong long range archers, really strong against monsters)
Elves -> Mithlond sentries (really tough units, only anti-cavalry for elves)
MoTW -> Dunedains (most versatile, and toughest units sword/bow big hp)
(Rohan -> Ghaladrim warriors - best archers/warriors for them)
(Gondor -> Knights of Dol-Amroth - real heavy cavalry)
MoTE -> Khandish warriors (strong wildman brutes with axes)
Moria -> ? no idea maybe hill-trolls, or something...

#12 Uruk King

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:42 PM

I like most of the ideas, particularly Mordor, Isengard, MotE, Rohan, Gondor and Erebor, but I'm not too certain about moving the Elves ' only spear unit to the Inn seems rather disadvantageous to me.

As for my previous suggestion of the Dwarves Inn allies, and you're right it, Dale would suit it better.

Dale could offer Dale Soldiers; fast yet effective infantry, skilled and deadly Archers, as well as the heroes Brand and Bard II.
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#13 Lord Fox

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 01:10 AM

I personally don't see why every fraction had to have their own special in unit, their all mercenaries right? I don't see why they wouldnt follow other fractions as long as their paid. The inn units should be changed to somthing which each race can't create as for that im not sure
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#14 khamulrulz

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 06:52 AM

i would think inn units aren't a huge priority though, and would only be done in 4.8 or 4.9 - the evil faction and new heroes and units are a bigger priority for 4.7
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#15 ttandchotmail

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 06:55 AM

Bingo ;)
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#16 Uruk King

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 04:07 PM

when I posted the suggestions, I didn't mean "right now", I meant "in time". As in something to consider for the future, if Nazgul decides to take that into account.
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#17 khamulrulz

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:37 AM

I rethought out my inn suggestion, and i'm thinking that every faction should get one inn hero and one inn unit. they should be guys that aren't in the actual faction, but are allied with them. inn heroes and units should be unique compared to other guys from the main faction. all inn heroes have leadership towards their respective inn units, as they are the leaders of that "inn faction". as posted in in my 4.8 suggestion thread, here they are:

GONDOR
Inn Hero: Forlong the Fat - heavily armored, can mount, has spear throw, heroic charge and leadership (attack speed) to lossarnarch guys
Inn Unit: Lossarnarch Axemen, little armor, but heavy damage, limited to 2 battalions

ROHAN
Inn Hero: Ghan-buri-ghan - no armor, can stealth in trees, detect stealth, assassin, and leadership (vision range) to druedain
Inn Unit: Druedain Scouts - no armor, armed with poison arrows, can stealth in trees, limited to 3 battalions

EREBOR
Inn Hero: Grimbeorn - bear/man toggle, honey cakes power heals and grants experience to nearby troops, battle rage, leadership (damage) to beornings
Inn Unit: Beorning Skinchangers - bear/man toggle, limited to 2 battalions

LORIEN
Inn Hero: Halbarad: armed with spear (standard of arwen), can stealth in trees, banner of the king power has mini cloud break, leadership (attack speed) to dunedain
Inn Unit: Rangers of the North: sword/bow toggle, little armor, can stealth in trees, limited to 2 battalions

RHUN
Inn Hero: Anar [insert dwarf name], has battle rage, horn of the east (like boromir's horn power), grants industry to a windmill, gives leadership (armor) bonus to orocarni dwarves
Inn Unit: Orocarni Dwarves, basically use original guardian model (i believe there will be a less-warhammer-looking one for the erebor guardians), limited to 2 battalions

HARAD
Inn Hero: Maltok [insert khand name], has bow/axe toggle, cripple shot, resources per kill, leadership (damage) to khand mercenaries
Inn Unit: Khand Mercenaries, armed with axes, limited to 2 battalions

ISENGARD
Inn Hero: Bill Ferny, club/whip toggle, has coerce, crack the whip (makes enemies cower in fear), leadership (movement speed)
Inn Unit: Ruffians, have clubs, can steal resources, limited to 3 battalions

MORIA
Inn Hero: Alpha Warg, always has his pack around him, can howl (gives fear), passively scares away horses, bloodlust (damage increase), leadership (damage) to wolf riders
Inn Unit: Gundabad Wolf Riders, limited to 3 battalions - less expensive than warg riders, but better than warg pack - can trample better, well armored, and can capture buildings

MORDOR
Inn Hero: Gorbag, has "covet" power which greatly weakens enemy armor, assassin, steal resources, leadership (attack speed) to morgul orcs
Inn Unit: Morgul Orcs, only orcs able to get heavy armor and forged blades, limited to 2 battalions

EDIT: A note on the names of rhun and harad heroes: i got them from the following website http://www.darkshire...rings/names.pdf, which either uses the middle-earth languages or the real-world languages they are based on. it isn't canon, but it helps me come up with names. if you don't like the names, then the orocarni dwarf hero can be called "Stonefoot (or other dwarven house in the east) Captain" , and the khand hero can be called "Khand Chieftain". I apologize if i offended you, namo or anyone else.

Edited by khamulrulz, 12 December 2009 - 02:14 PM.

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#18 Predi

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:51 AM

Good ideas khamulrulz, really good ones. :p The only one that I don't like is the Isengard inn heroes/units. Bill Ferny wasn't that much of a "hero". He was good at scaring little hobbits, but that's all. I think Wulf and the dunlandings would be much better choice. IMO Bill Ferny doesn't even have the capability nor the right to be in a real-time strategy. Maybe in an rpg...
PS: I like the Harad/Rhún but I think those are mostly made-up, so I don't know... :p

#19 Námo

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:22 PM


RHUN
Inn Hero: Anar ...

HARAD
Inn Hero: Maltok ...

From where did you get those names?? Please state your source, the language the names are made from, their etymology, and possibly other info relating to those characters!

Those names are certainly not genuine Tolkien names, and Peter Jackson never used any 'alien' names not found in the lore of Tolkien! Introducing new 'proper names' would be equal to making up new characters, with all that goes with that: personality, history, etc. This would be about the most disrespectful act you could commit in respect to any author's work. :D

Personally, I will strongly oppose such undertaking; moreover so, because it would be completely unnecessary: it is perfectly possible within Tolkien's lore to give 'titles' to any unnamed hero, either in their appropriate language, or if that fails (read: a Rhûn faction based only on Wain-riders/Balchoth) using Common Speech, which in Tolkien's works are 'represented' by modern English). ;)

Otherwise no comments ... for now.

I personally don't see why every fraction had to have their own special in unit, their all mercenaries right? ...

I don't recollect any true mercenaries in Middle-earth (at the time of the War of the Ring), apart from the Variags of Khand, and that depends on the linguistic interpretation of their name. The closest you can get are probably Bill Ferny and his ruffians (cf. the chapter "the Scouring of the Shire"), but I see them more like just ruffians than mercenaries.

All the realms of Middle-earth had minorities, with whom the dominating population had some kind of cultural and political interaction (allies); reflecting this in the Inn-system just makes the game more authentic ... and beautiful. :thumbsupsmiley:


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#20 khamulrulz

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:58 PM

namo, i hope i cleared up the naming thing in my edited post above. i understand that creating new names goes against the lore, but in some areas where source material is insufficient, game creators take creative license. peter jackson did this for the characters lurtz and sharku among others, and the horse brego. ea created the name drogoth, as well as gorkil (which is being removed anyway). i understand that you may disapprove of this, which is why like i stated in my edited post above, the orocarni dwarf and khand mercenary heroes can have generic names (like the alpha warg). the names anar and maltok were just generic dwarf and easterling names i found on that website.

now that that is settled, i hope the conversation can be about my suggestions for the inn units and heroes. referring to predi's suggestion, i used ruffians because i think that dunlendings could be in the main faction, because there is a dunland tent, and also because units in the books such as dunlending horsemen and half-orcs could be built in the dunlnad tent.
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