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Dwarven bows?


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#21 Adamin

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 01:23 PM

Tolkien definetly mentioned Bows in Middleearth. There are even passages, where Thorin and Company used bows, like quoted above.

Crossbows however were never mentioned explicit in LotR. But they somehow belong to dwarfs through common fantasy lore. ^^


So, me personally likes them both. But if I had to decide, I would prefer the bows because they are rather unknown as dwarven weaponry and thereby something special.

If I wouldn't have to decide though, I would suggest using the bowmen as the ranged units, but give them an "shooting technology"-upgrade which arms them with crossbows (knocks enemies down and stuns them for a moment). Shouldn't this be possible through a modellchange? And wouldn't that be pretty cool? :dry:
The firearrows could only stay for the bowmen, so the player has to decide between them and the crossbows.

Edited by Adamin, 19 October 2009 - 01:24 PM.

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#22 Nazgûl

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 02:04 PM

Awesome discussion... :dry:

Hm, I might btw need a "full time" Lore Master on the Team for questions like these... That position would grant access to private betas off course. Let me know if you're interested in that Namo =)
Personaly I like the idea of crossbows, simply cause they feel more "industrial" and worthy products of dwarven craftsmanship... but I know most lore guys want bows and I also want to stay as trueto Tolkien as I can. What to do, what to do... I was planning to add this unit pretty soon. But I might work on Moria instead (hero work) while we contemplate on this :)

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#23 Mathijs

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 02:08 PM

The thing is, Tolkien Dwarves were not supposed to be industrial at all. That's something other franchises did for their Dwarves, such as Warhammer and Warcraft. EA apparently decided to do the same for their BFME2 Dwarves, but they were wrong. If you care about the lore, don't give them crossbows. It would only further the misconceptions, especially when you're dealing with a mod as big as this one.

Edited by Matias, 19 October 2009 - 02:13 PM.

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#24 drogoth232

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 02:21 PM

Well personally axe-throwers are fine. Thats my two cents. But also like Adamin said whats wrong with bows and an upgrade to make them crossbows. I think that personally that Idea is great, but just for personal knowledge how many archers does each faction have (for example elves have like 3 or 2 and men have 2) if they all have 2 then have axe throwers and bowmen. Again just my two cents.
Wait... what?

#25 Námo

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 02:21 PM

Considering that the only fact we have, is this: "Arrows came forth as they were within shot", the weapon releasing these arrows could be ANY kind of bow!

Crossbow ''arrows'' are called bolts.

Right, I forgot that. Thanks, Matias ... I guess that rules out the crossbows. :dry:

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#26 Nazgûl

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 03:05 PM

The thing is, Tolkien Dwarves were not supposed to be industrial at all. That's something other franchises did for their Dwarves, such as Warhammer and Warcraft. EA apparently decided to do the same for their BFME2 Dwarves, but they were wrong. If you care about the lore, don't give them crossbows. It would only further the misconceptions, especially when you're dealing with a mod as big as this one.


I hear you... :dry: I guess it comes down to how much I'm willing to deviate from the lore... hm, we'll see :)

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#27 Gfire

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 04:36 PM

Well, I don't see any point in deviating from the lore, cause I don't think crossbows would be any "better" in the game. Maybe a bit cooler, but nothing like the "cool" the Dwarves should be. They are good craftsmen, but not industrious.

I think crossbows would be selling out to the more common, Warcraft-style Dwarves, but losing the Tolkien, and even PJ, feel. In the films there wasn't much about the Dwarves, but I think bows fits with the movie Dwarves better, besides being more accurate to the lore.
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#28 Nazgûl

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 04:41 PM

Ok, for once I will try to please the masses... kind of :dry:

BOWS it is! Too bad about the nice crossbow model, but hey, I have more news about this faction soon anyways... :) Loads of goodies! Tell you more tonight...

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#29 Gfire

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 04:43 PM

Maybe you could throw them in as an easter egg or something.
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#30 drogoth232

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 04:51 PM

I expected this outcome. But it still kind of surprised me.
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#31 Gfire

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 04:52 PM

I thought bows had been decided on months ago, so I don't really feel any different.

That was probably before the Crossbow models showed up.
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#32 Guest_Matto_*

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 05:39 PM

I have an idea : don't replace the axe throwers with archers . But I suggest that you could make tha axethrowers a short ranged unit while archers have a larger range . But why not for archers ...

#33 Hermoor

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 06:21 PM

What? I don't get what you mean :dry:
Keep it like it is? Axethrowers and a new dwarf bow unit?
This is just a suggestion...the text above.

#34 Nazgûl

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 06:30 PM

Nah, they'll go... cause of this:

1) Axe Throwers with 1000 axes in one sack is less realistic than archers having loads of bows, regardless if they're bows or crossbows. An arrow takes a "little" less space to carry than a big friggin axe =p
- At one point we thought about having a wagon follw the throwers, filled with axes, but... nah... too much work, and also... whap happes if the wagon guy is killed?

2) I need more heroes for this faction, and the axe thrower model is good. So instead of scrapping them all together I can use that model as a hero. I think it's easier to cope with one unit throwing axes endlessly than 15-20 at once. Easier on the eyes so to speak =p Also that way, I have one less request for modelers that I don't have any longer.

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#35 Hermoor

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 06:53 PM

If you reskin it sure. Btw I wanna help model some characters!! :dry:
Are you sure there are no conversation programs or something to make the models in blender then import them into the modeling program you are using? What formats can that program import?
This is just a suggestion...the text above.

#36 Adamin

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 06:54 PM

BOWS it is! Too bad about the nice crossbow model, but hey, I have more news about this faction soon anyways... :dry: Loads of goodies! Tell you more tonight...


Well, if the Crossbowmodell is so good, then why don't add the Crossbowmen as a unique spellsummon? Or a special Unitsummon for a hero. This way, the cool modell won't be thrown away and the Bowmen stay the only buildable ranged Unit.
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#37 Nazgûl

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 06:55 PM

@Hermoor: I am no Modeler myself... :dry: You could ask Digi_Byte on my team... He's currently the only active modeler on the SEE Team

And yeah, I might use the crossbows as some Inn unit or summon perhaps... But let's go with the "normal" bows as archers from this faction =)

Edited by Nazgûl, 19 October 2009 - 06:57 PM.

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#38 Hermoor

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 07:31 PM

Is this the kind of models you need? What is the maximum poly count for them? I think I can make 10 of those in 20 min. :dry: Also what is the resolution of the textures?
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Edited by Hermoor, 19 October 2009 - 07:32 PM.

This is just a suggestion...the text above.

#39 Nazgûl

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 07:55 PM

Our models range from 500-3000 polys. I think most are around 1000-1500 =)
I usually prefer skins in 512x512 pix. NO less than 256x256 anyways, and no bigger than 1024x1024. 512 is perfect!

Here's the new (raw) bowmen model for Erebor... note that I will reskin them though, for multiple hair color and clothing =)
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#40 Archon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 07:58 PM

That's very nicely done. I think the tunics should be brown instead of blue though. Are the models rigged and animated?
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