91 replies to this topic

[Dant]

The second what, if I may ask? You lost me. tongue.gif

You mean Nori? Maybe, but I think Nazgul just wants to have one...

Hmm..i don't know but it would be lovely if he could wear Iron Guard armor.

Edited by Dant, 20 October 2009 - 02:22 AM.

[Gfire]

TG doesn't say everything. Nori and Dori were likely both wealthy. In fact, at their equal shares of the treasure they should have been. And like I said, hero horde would be kinda weird with Ori out of the picture.

I'm still going for Bifur as there's no brother to confuse him with.

[khamulrulz]

i found this by Namo on previous posts on the old dwarf faction thread. it is taken from stuff written by christopher tolkien about his father's notes. it has to do with durin vii. although there is no year of birth given in any published sources, i think based on tolkien's notes, durin vii should be the son of thorin stonehelm

"Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it (as is said in the accompanying genealogical table). [...] It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this idea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact, that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition.

There are two copies of the genealogical table accompanying the second version, but they are essentially the same: [...] Thorin III is now called 'Stonehelm', and 'Durin the Last' is shown as his son, 'who re-established the Realm of Moria'; beneath his name is a dotted arrow (as beneath Thorin III in the original table) indicating unnamed descendants. ... "

This implies that Durin VII is the son of Thorin Stonehelm, in the latter version of Tolkien's notes, after he had originally decided to make Durin a descendant of Thorin by an unknown number of generations.

Also, there is generally a 100 year gap between generations:

"In the genealogical table all the 'kings of Durin's Folk' from Nain I to Thorin Oakenshield were born either 101 or 102 (in one case 100) years after their fathers."

Dain was 252 when he died, so Thorin Stonehelm would be about 150 years old, and Durin VII would be about 50 years old at the time of the War of the Ring.

"Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard working or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed [...] 'old age' lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great."

This means that Thorin and Durin would both appear quite young, as dwarves didn't age noticable until over 200 years old. Also, with Durin being about 50, he would be at the age of a ripe young warrior.


I hope this clears the way for Durin VII to be added as a hero

Edited by khamulrulz, 20 October 2009 - 02:21 PM.

[Dant]

TG doesn't say everything. Nori and Dori were likely both wealthy. In fact, at their equal shares of the treasure they should have been. And like I said, hero horde would be kinda weird with Ori out of the picture.

I'm still going for Bifur as there's no brother to confuse him with.

Edain Mod, Have try heroes horde before..even three in one horde.

I remember bilbo trolls, Bert, Tom, and William, However even though it able to put three heores in one horde..it quite weird though.

Edited by Dant, 20 October 2009 - 02:46 PM.

[Nazgûl]

I'm thinking... why not Durin VI as the final hero, and for him using Lauri's model ^ Rather fitting with the Khazad helmet

"Durin VI was King of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm in the Third Age, when their deep mining for mithril under Caradhras aroused a Balrog from its hiding place in the depths. The creature killed Durin in T.A. 1980, and became known as Durin's Bane. He was succeeded by his son, Náin I, who was killed by the Balrog in the following year, after which the ancient city was abandoned by its people."

Even though he was slain during this time, it wouldn't be much more wrong than having Boromir I think... But on the other hand, ppl didn't want Balin for this reason too. So if this hero is too far fetched with the lore... we could make it mr VII instead. Young and healthy =p

Edited by Nazgûl, 20 October 2009 - 04:26 PM.

[Gfire]

Balin before Durin VI, I'd say. Boromir is way different, since he appeared in the movies. I think Boromir actually died like the day after the war of the ring started.

[Námo]

The Dwarves were very 'solid', so they could not be turned into ghosts or wraiths; this is attested several places in the lore, like in relation to the effect the seven rings were having on the Dwarwes etc. - so the only way an incarnation of Durin could appear during the War of the Ring would be as 'Durin the VII and Last':

History of Middle-earth Vol. XII /Part One /The Prologue and Appendices to the Lord of the Rings /(IX) The Making of Appendix A: (IV) Durin pp. 274, 276, 278:

My father's original text of what would become the section Durin's Folk in Appendix A is [...] entitled Of Durin's Line accompanied by a genealogy forming a part of the text. [...] Here the history {of Thrór's ancestors} is present, but not yet precisely in the final form; [...]

This text was followed by a second version, a well-written and scarcely corrected manuscript with the title Of Durin's Race. [...]

The passage added to the first version was slightly filled out and improved, but the only difference worth noticing lies in the sentences following the words 'made war of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in revenge for Thrór', which now read: 'Long and deadly was that war, and it was fought for the most part in dark places beneath the earth; and at the last the Dwarves had the victory, and in the Battle before the Gate of Moria ten thousand Orcs were slain. But the Dwarves suffered also grievous loss and his people were now so diminished that Thráin dared not to enter Moria, and his people were dispersed again.' The only really significant difference from the first version, however, lies in the final sentence, which became:

And the line of Dáin prospered, and the wealth and renown of the kingship was renewed, until there arose again for the last time an heir of that House that bore the name of Durin, and he returned to Moria; and there was light again in deep places, and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps, until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days of Durin's race were ended.

Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it (as is said in the accompanying genealogical table). [...] It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this idea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact, that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition.

There are two copies of the genealogical table accompanying the second version, but they are essentially the same: [...] Thorin III is now called 'Stonehelm', and 'Durin the Last' is shown as his son, 'who re-established the Realm of Moria'; beneath his name is a dotted arrow (as beneath Thorin III in the original table) indicating unnamed descendants. ...

This ... supports the conclusion that a good deal of the late drafting in typescript has been lost.

conclusion: from the evolution of the genealogical tables it is clear, that Durin VII the Last emerged as the son of Thorin III Stonehelm, even though this is not shown in the table printed in Appendix A of the Lord of the Rings.

These are the only direct references in the lore, but it can be verified in an indirect, yet rather convincing way:

Combining the fact, that Durin VII was the Dwarven Lord to retake Moria (see above quote) with this fact:

History of Middle-earth XII /The Making of Appendix A' p.285:

... For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or head of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrór.

the crucial question is of course this:

After the end of The War of the Ring, how long would the Dwarves wait before retaking their beloved Khazad-dûm?:

• As soon as possible after the end of The War of the Ring?
• A hundred years?
• Even longer ... two hundred years?

Pick your choice ... the answer will determine whether Durin VII is the son, the grandson, or the great grandson of Thorin III Stonehelm!

[well, to me the answer is obvious, but it would be nice to hear some other opinion on this delicate matter of lore ]

... some other info on Durin:

History of Middle-earth XII /Last writings p. 383 (391)
(... on the different incarnations of Durin:)

Of these Durins the Dwarves reported that they retained memory of their former lives as Kings, as real, and yet as incomplete, as if they had been consecutive years of life in one person.

(note:)
Yet it is said that their memories were clearer and fuller of the far-off days.

[khamulrulz]

that means that durin vii could be a ring hero for the dwarves, if ring heros are specific per faction.... he would have the memories and abilities of his forefathers. that could be rly cool

[Nazgûl]

Thanks Namo for that informative post =)

And no, we wont have individual Ring Heroes... Noone can wield the Ring but Sauron. Evil side will keep Sauron and Good sides will eventually have a new ring system... but this is not the topic for that

Edited by Nazgûl, 21 October 2009 - 03:53 PM.

[Gfire]

That's not even true. The Istari would be able to wield the ring, and Saruman would keep it for himself. Galadriel, too, and some of the other old elves would probably be able to wield it also. Balrogs, probably, too, could use it.

[Hermoor]

"The ring answers to Sauron alone, it has no other master"
-Aragorn, Rivendell council-

Saruman could use it galadriel could use it. But if they did they would eventually fall. I think everyone that is on the "good" side should have a new ring system like Nazgul say. And all the bad guys should have ring heroes.

[Archon]

Yeah, and it would suck if your hero went to the "evil" side after only a while after using the Ring

[mike_]

The War of the Ring actually 'started' when a two-front assault was made in Mirkwood (South of Thranduil's Halls in an attempt to capture Gollum) and in Gondor (the First Battle of Osgiliath, when the Bridge was thrown down). So Boromir effectively died almost two years after the War started, IIRC..

[Gfire]

I thought the Fords of Isen was commonly considered the first battle.

It answers to Sauron alone, but the others can still take it, and they will answer to it. However, I do still want the destruction system for the good side.

[Nazgûl]

Working on adding THORIN III STONEHELM now...

[Nazgûl]

Thorin is now in game... Have a look in Screen Shot topic =)

Next up is DWALIN. I just hope I can get the model fully working... I'm having some troubles with the axe throw...



(Model donated by: IthronAiwendil, for WotE)

[khamulrulz]

nice... with cloak and all i read in one of namo's posts that when dwarves had regular beard and hair colour until they got really old, then it suddenly became white. dwalin would have been quite old, so i think he would have a white beard, rather than grey (they didn't really have an in-between stage) i also think that although the cloak looks cool (like he was in the hobbit), dwalin would have dressed more richly.

so dwalin is an axe-thowing hero? hmm... don't remember him throwing axes but oh well. he looks cool. glad to see some good work coming through!

[Gfire]

Yeah, some gold and brighter colors might be cool for him.

Gloin's beard was fully white at that time, so Dwalin's may have been also.. IDK, though.

[Nazgûl]

Edited 1st post with this image from the set...



Thorin - Gloin - Dain... perhaps?

[Hermoor]

Who's the guy in the middle Harry Potter?
The model looks nice, I like the texture a lot.

Nazgul är det du som gör texturerna? Eller vem är det som gör dom? Skulle du kunna skicka mig personens profil så jag kan kontakta honom, behöver hjälp med textures själv