57 replies to this topic

[Allathar]

That's one thing I don't understand... Why the fuck should I have to bother downloading add-ons for a browser to work? It's like 'Chrome sucks' and then 'ah, but that's because you don't have addons x, y, and z!'. I mean, what's the fucking point? Why didn't they include the addons in the main package if they're so good? Is it too much asked to just download a browser and that's it, with the über-addons already included? No, you also got to download an additional shitload of addons to get the browser fully working.... Bah.

[Ash]

or just whatever fucking works. I used to just use IE7 because it worked. Firefox got me with addons like FireFTP and ChatZilla so I stick with it now. But not because it's better or anything.

I tend to find it's less hoggy on the whole. But yes, the addons are another bonus. As long as they all do the same thing, I don't see the problem. Adding extra functionality is a plus, though.

That's one thing I don't understand... Why the fuck should I have to bother downloading add-ons for a browser to work? It's like 'Chrome sucks' and then 'ah, but that's because you don't have addons x, y, and z!'. I mean, what's the fucking point? Why didn't they include the addons in the main package if they're so good? Is it too much asked to just download a browser and that's it, with the über-addons already included? No, you also got to download an additional shitload of addons to get the browser fully working.... Bah.

To be fair, the browser must fully work without the addons. Addons just add functionality that is beneficial. Such as AdBlockPlus for Firefox. Stylish is another good one, especially for Facebook users. And how does anyone survive without DownloadHelper or such?

Those are just a choice of my own useful apps, but different people have different stuff, that add BitTorrent functionality or such. That is kind of the Open Source mentality tho - create a barebones that people add to. That's why Linux is like it is.

[Allathar]

Downloadhelper... Hmm, sounds interesting. What does it do?

[Bart]

For the end user there isn't, and that's who matters.

It does matter, but it's not in plain sight.

Imagine that somebody invents a new type of road that will make cars go faster and consume less energy. However, cars must be adapted to this road, and unadapted cars can't drive on it.
Almost all manufacturers adapt their cars, but most people drive a Volkswagen and VW refuses to do so. The roads therefore aren't built, because most people wouldn't be able to drive on them and it'd be a wasted effort. Those VW drivers screw it for the rest of the people.

New type of road = new web technology
VW = Microsoft/IE

[Ash]

Downloadhelper... Hmm, sounds interesting. What does it do?

It'll download any media file from any video site you could think of, in .flv format (which can then be easily converted to avi or mp3, depending on your reasons for downloading the file...or simply play it in vlc player). Youtube, or one of its more adult-themed counterparts? No problem.

For the end user there isn't, and that's who matters.

It does matter, but it's not in plain sight.

As far as the end-user is concerned, it doesn't matter. They get the experience they are used to. The scenario you just described isn't how technology works. The new tech is developed, and used by those who care/who need it/who use the other systems. Those that don't just lollygag.

Microsoft provide a product and service to the average casual user. Grandma Agnes, with her first-ever computer using WinXP or Vista doesn't particularly care about a new system of downloading, or whether it is slower than the alternative. She doesn't much care whether a .png can be displayed transparently, or whether her browser passes some stupid benchmark test. She cares that she can access her emails and chat to her granddaughter online.

And let's face it. 99.99999999% of users will have no difference in experience when browsing the web, save for the speed of their connection. If I were to use IE to view this website, it'd look no different whatsoever. Not one site on the net that I would actually go to for any real purpose would look any different. My experience is not marred by using IE, it is improved by using firefox with the additional plugin features I like. But Firefox also does a bunch of crap I don't care about. Like tabbed browsing.

I mean, I barely use bookmarks, because I know the web addresses of every site I regularly visit by heart. In the same way that Windows does everything I need it to do (resulting in my not bothering to change - I would only end up running XP in Sun Virtual Box if I moved to Linux, and doing more or less everything within that virtual box), so too would your average basic internet user.

It's only developers that care about any of these fancy-pants features, because they're the only ones who register a difference. Same goes for audio bitrates. Everything I download is 320kbps. I immediately convert it to 162. Why? Because I don't notice an appreciable difference, and frankly don't care. It takes an uber-hardcore music listener (or maybe even a musician/audiologist) to even appreciate the difference between 128 and 320. To the majority of people, the difference is negligible, nonexistent or purely academic. In practical real terms, it's pointless.

[Allathar]

@ Ash: I've got something like that, yes

@2play: I understand your position, but your metaphor is incorrect. Whereas everyone would be happy to have better roads and drive faster (everyone will see the difference), not many people will notice or care about browser and web coding, as long as it works for them and the end-use is solid. A correct metaphor would be some new material which makes building roads easier, but requiring everyone to switch tiers and has no real point for the common people beside easier roadbuilding.

[Bart]

A correct metaphor would be some new material which makes building roads easier, but requiring everyone to switch tiers and has no real point for the common people beside easier roadbuilding.

You have somewhat of a point, but my metaphor is also correct. New technology does not only make building sites easier, it also just plain enables new features.

[Phil]

I don't think you understood his metaphor. The point is that you simply cannot make use of these technologies as long as the big part of the browsing population cannot use them. So the reason why you see no difference is because the developers cannot really implement that stuff if they lock out the majority of users.
In terms of streets: you see no difference because the new streets are not being built. People think "So what? The current streets work and the comfort of my VW is just as good as that of any other car."

[Bart]

On the other hand, the people who want to drive faster can't, because they won't build the new streets.

[Ash]

But people do build the new streets.

Admittedly, the majority of the internet's userbase are completely naive to any new technology. You should see the "information" provided to newbies about what viruses/malware/spyware are. It's stupid. Nothing is properly explained in a language everyone understands.

But most of those people going "so what?" have a totally valid point, DLOTS. Like Grandma Agnes, they have no real use for the new developments. So why would they waste their time caring about them? I'm one of those people.

[m@tt]

To go back to a couple of things raised in this topic...

@ DLOTS - IE8 gets a huge 21% on the Acid Test. I think... the site isn't working right now.

@ Fen - about the "learn to code" thing - if you code it right, it will work on non-IE browsers. The problem is that work arounds are needed for IE6 and IE7, i.e. you code wrongly for it to work. IE8 works for all standard stuff I think, I haven't had a problem with the last few sites I've built but I build simple sites.

And I use Firefox (3.6b). It's slowest on startup on my laptop, but the addons are very useful and as a basic browser it does the job. I usually have all of them installed though, though not at the moment.

[Thats me!]

firefox or chrome....nuff said!

[Beowulf]

@ Fen - about the "learn to code" thing - if you code it right, it will work on non-IE browsers. The problem is that work arounds are needed for IE6 and IE7, i.e. you code wrongly for it to work. IE8 works for all standard stuff I think, I haven't had a problem with the last few sites I've built but I build simple sites.

Dude. Really? You make that argument? I use DIVs and get them to work hack free in IE6 and 7. It's not hard.

[m@tt]

Eh? I know how to code perfectly well. I use div's too, and most of the time they work fine in IE. But unfortunately not everything does work in IE6 or IE7. My point is that I know applying hacks is (usually*) easy, but we shouldn't need to use hacks, IE6/7 should display things properly without them.

*I had loads of trouble on a previous site. I used PNG images in my navigation list, and applying the hacks was a use pain (because of IE limitations, several hacks ended up breaking something else in the navigation). And another I made included a image list grid, easy in FF/C/S/O, less-so in IE.

[True Lord of Chaos]

It's like 'Chrome sucks' and then 'ah, but that's because you don't have addons x, y, and z!'.

Bullshit. You obviously haven't used Chrome.
It works perfectly fine without addons. I've never even heard of Chrome addons...they've got custom themes, like I use a metallic one that makes the browser look like a sheet of steel, but those don't effect the performance. On Firefox, it's slightly faster then IE8, until you tweak some settings, then it's as fast as Chrome.

[garratt]

The 3 kings of internet browsing are petty. So is safari because its on a shit system. A briliant coder last year edited safari made it suited for windows amd added a few minor tweaks. Loveable in every way. Search for Optimum 4.2 for something special.

[Chrisjh0223]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Firefox has received the most votes & positive recommendation in this topic so now I'm considering that one.

[Jeeves]

Just as long as you open about:config and change everything, and restart the browser every few hours or it starts to slow down and hog memory.