27 replies to this topic

[Archon]

GOOD FACTIONS:

Gondor:

Landroval

Rohan:

Eagle (Summons, becomes permanent hero)

Lothlorien:

Gwaihir

Erebor:

Eagle Lord

--------------------------------

EVIL FACTIONS:

Mordor:

Fellbeasts (x9)

Moria:

Drogoth

Isengard:

Smaug (summons)
Dragon (summons)

Rhun/Harad:

(Dragon of the South?)

Why don't you give Lothlorien Gwaihir (I think this has already been done) and add an Eagle Lord to the Erebor faction. Dain befriended the Lord of Eagles in The Hobbit and gave him a gold chain around his neck. This way all the good factions would have aerial heroes to counteract Mordor's Fellbeasts.

Also a Dragon of the South or something could be added for Rhun/Harad to make sure all factions have aerial heroes.

[Gfire]

Radagast never worked with Gondor or Rohan, so I don't no why he'd be there for them... Maybe Rohan if Gandalf goes to Gondor after a split. But he really lived in Rhovanion, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Eagles fit with all three good factions as summons, at least. They came to the Black Gate battle, which looked pretty cool in the movie, and were allied with Dwarves. I don't have a problem with all of the good factions having eagles, but probably only as permanent summons.

[Archon]

Perhaps then Radagast for Elves, and add Landroval and Meneldor to Men of the West (they helped them in the last battle of the Black Gate).

[Gfire]

Hmmm... I think just "summon eagles" is good enough.

[Nazgûl]

Eeeerrr... all good factions have Eagles in SEE 4.5...? And everyone keeps telling me they shouldn't have? Now they should?

[Archon]

I was under the impression they were going to be removed in 4.7, which I REALLY don't want to happen. Mordor has a HUGE aerial advantage with all those Fellbeast-mounted Nazguls, and I think it should be evened up a little

[Gfire]

I never said they should be removed.

Personally I don't like the idea of eagles as normal fortress heroes is a little weird, as they didn't actually come out of Gondor/Rohan, Rivendell/Lothlorien/Mirkwood, or Erebor/Iron hills, or anywhere the other heroes come from. I like them just as summons.

Not sure about Isengard, but some crebain should be adequate in huge groupd for taking down other flyers. Maybe stronger ravens for the Dwarves, too.

[Mordor Slayer]

Another possible solution would be to disable the fellbeasts for some of the Nazgûl. I'm not a huge fan having aerial units for all factions, it just forces you to buy them because you know the AI will build them eventually. Only having them as permanent units for one or two factions adds diversity to the game.

[Archon]

Disabling Fellbeasts I don't think is the best idea - mainly because all of the Nine were specifically shown in the movies riding them. Maybe increasing arrow damage to Fellbeasts would work better (in the Fellowship of the Ring, Legolas shot one down with a single arrow).

But I'd still go for aerial units for all factions, because of balance and because I think they're cool.

P.S. Gfire, I can definitely see your point about the summons being more consistent with lore, but it seems incredibly imbalanced to me that other factions don't have the aerial units. Maybe we could put the Rohan eagles in a summons to match with Isengard.

[Gfire]

I don't see the balance problem. Just balance it, and it'll be fine.

[khamulrulz]

honestly, this mod is more about realism and staying with the movie lore (and the books, to some extent). just because some factions had flying guys in lotr doesn't mean that every faction should be given them for the sake of evening them out.

As far as i am concerned, 4.7 will have the best selection of aerial heroes:

Men: Eagle (when Gondor and Rohan split, Gondor will get the eagle, Rohan WON'T)
Erebor: NO AERIAL HERO
Lorien: Eagle + Gwaihir from Eagle's Nest
Rhun/Harad: NO AERIAL HERO
Isengard: NO AERIAL HERO
Mordor: Witchking, + 8 Nazgul that can mount fellbeasts at level 8
Moria: Drogoth from Dragon's Nest

As for aerial "spy" units, dwarves could get ravens (from dale) as a spellbook power, vultures as a fortress upgrade for rhun/harad, crebain as a spellbook power and a fortress upgrade for isengard, bats as a fortress upgrade and spellbook power for moria, as well as summon smaug for moria.

[yams in a can]

If you are thinking of adding a dragon of the south, that would not make sense. At least make it a dragon of the north, i have not heard of any dragons dwelling in the South. Smaug was in the North, and EA was smart enough to have Drogorth live in the North, as he should have.

For Isengard, when you get the fortress upgrade "crebain" or the crebain one, the fortress should get a special ability with the crows. One could be to devastate an aerial target, because it would be hard for a fellbeast to stop a bunch of crows from pecking at it . It could do less damage to eagles because Eagles are birds (at least more than fellbeasts) and they are sort of the 'lord(s)" of birds.

For men, they should make Gwahier because Gwahier greatly respected Gandalf. he could summon up to 4 eagles to himself, which are permanent. As well, he could not summon more, until those 4 eagles are destroyed. Their should be a limit to summoning two each time, and once their are 4, the timer won't recharge until their are 2 eagles left. The timer for summoning power should not be long.

For the dwarves, The Eagle Lord (I know who you are talking about, The one from the Hobbit) could be summoned with 4 eagles, all permanent. Once the eagle lord is dead, he could be recruited as normal hero. He could have the same ability as Gwahier.

The reason I chose them to be able to summon that many is because when Gwahier and the eagle lord arrived with eagle reinforcements, they usually arrived with a lot of eagles, hence the "summoning."

[Gfire]

There's an idea: After summoning the eagles they will act as normal heroes and can be revived. I think Mordor should have Fellbeasts, All Good should have eagles as summons (and then revivables after summoned) and Isengard should get crebain anti-air. The crebain from the crebain spell could actually be able to attack other air units. And Moria can have Drogoth from the nest, I guess. I think this is fair.

Drogoth should be far more powerful than a fellbeast, though. In the books, arrows bounced off dragons doing no damage, but Legolas shot down a fellbeast with one arrow. It would probably take as long to take down drogoth as it would all nine of the fellbeasts. Not sure where eagles fit in the balance, but they can beat fells, and not dragons. Probably less resistant to fire arrows, though, but able to take down fellbeasts easily, and good for picking off heroes, or something.

[yams in a can]

Thanks Gfire! I really don't think summoning, then changing to heroes would be my idea, just always being summoned, and having no timers. Eagles, to me are very powerful, so they should not equal the number of nazguls, just power (hence, only four eagles). Eagles were powerful enough to take on dragons ! Drogorth is more powerful than eagles, so he is stronger than fellbeasts.

I forgot to mention elves. They should get Gwahier and his brother, (the eagle lord) whose name I think is Landroval, not sure. The eagle limit for elves should be 6, including Gwahier and Landroval. I am not sure why I like that better, just seems fitting. Both Landroval and Gwahier are NOT summons, but the other eagles are. Fellbeasts should scare archers before they attack, as shown in the movies. That's why few were shot down. This will make it suicide for fellbeasts to attack a lot of archers. To restrict them, they should cost more, 3,000 in my opinion. They were Sauron's most powerful servants. Khamul, as he was the second strongest nazgul, and was the only other nazgul besides the Witch King to be able to sense the presence of the ring, should cost 4,000. The Witch King should be 5,000.

I need to paragraph these advices more.

[khamulrulz]

yeah ringwraiths should definitely cost more than say, the mouth of sauron. they should cost like 3,000. i'm not sure about the whole summoning eagle thing though. wouldn't six eagles be a LOT? i'm personally happy with just two for elves, and i can't imagine fending off six eagles from the ground.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Well, in the movies that's what Mordor had to face... and they lost ... You've just got to be prepared... but I'm gonna agree with you, 6 is a bit much. Maybe 4.

[RalphDamiani]

This could easily be improved if Fellbeasts were trained through a Den, with a significant cost and build time. In which case, the Nazgul would need to be near a vacant Fellbeast in order to mount it. The Fellbeast itself could have reduced hitpoints, and taking it down won't kill the Hero unit. In order to mount again, a new Fellbeast needs to be created and taken to the Nazgul's proximity.

It's a process that once implemented, will reduce the amount of of flying beasts in any given time.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Another great idea Ralph! Maybe a new building or even recruitable from the fortress as seperate mountable mini-heroes?

[Gfire]

I'd make eagles a rank four power, and make the Nazgul require level 6 or 8 to use fells, so they're late-game.

I've thought of an idea like the separate fellbeasts, but it could just be too complex in game. Like when the fell dies, where does the hero go? Fall straight onto the ground? Get stuck on a cliff somewhere?

Good concept if you could get it to play well. And maybe tricky for the AI... But it'd be like Treebeard and the hobbits, I guess.

In this way, you could also buy horses for them

Edited by Gfire, 06 November 2009 - 07:10 PM.

[RalphDamiani]

As for the Eagles, I would be hesitant to add too many of them for any given faction.
However, if you're going to have Nazgul on Fellbeasts, then you should keep all nine, establishing some other kind of balance mechanism, like the one I suggested above.

As for the eagles, I would be hesitant to add to many of them to any given faction. If balance is a concern, hero eagles could summon some temporary help from a "Summon Eagles" power. They descend from above, AI controlled, do some damage and fly off for the cool down period. This won't clutter the hero roster and isn't as harsh as a tome power requiring loads of spell points.