Jump to content


Photo

SEE - The One Ring system


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#1 Nazgûl

Nazgûl

    S.E.E. Team Leader

  • Hosted
  • 10,554 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Projects:BFME2 - Nazgûl's Special Extended Edition
  •  Veteran

Posted 04 November 2009 - 11:40 PM

After years of debate, discussions, ideas, planning and desperate brainstorming from all over, Sûl and I have finally decided upon the future of the Ring Hero system in SEE... Here are the basic facts, without going into too much detail!

0) Gollum: the neutral Ring Keeper mode (having the Ring) and the recruitable Ring Stealer mode (looking for the Ring), remains! =)

1) Galadriel will be removed, as ring hero for good factions! This was always my plan, but left for another beta than 4.5... That's why we currently have two Galadriels in game as a temporary setup! =p

2) We will NOT have ANY ring heroes for any good faction what so ever! Simply cause it's NOT right to have any one possible from the good factions to wield The One Ring (except Gandalf, if he turned evil, which we wouldn't do)! It's agaist the fundamental lore! :party: (If we can't find enough time for this beta, we'll use Tom Bombadil as a new temporary solution!)

3) Frodo and Sam will be removed from Lothlórien faction, and made into "ring heroes" for all good factions (and Pippin/Merry will be moved to Gondor/Rohan)! The idea is that when you gain the Ring, you'd gain access to Frodo & Sam, with Sam most likely as a slave unit of Frodo, protecting him, and from here on, you'd need to pass several waypoints on the map, before exiting off screen and start a timer. If the evil factions have not defeated good before timer runs out, it would mean Frodo have reached Mount Doom and destroyed the Ring. This might possible mean instant defeat OR having a tremendeous bonus for all good against evil, and possibly also having evil units in fear... More details later in production.

4) For EVIL faction however, we aim for loads of possibilities that involve the Spell Book and ultimately having the faction's most powerful unit become the weilder of the Ring. This is all in sync with Sûl's interpretation of what The One Ring truly is - the incarnation of the true powers of Sauron, and as such, the Ring (which would be Sauron in "contained" form) would make use of a powerful weilder like these (all MAIAR) units would be:

- Mordor obviously gets Sauron's humanoid form as the ultimate goal of the Ring itself! It wants to be found and brought to its master's domains, so that Sauron can gain his humanoid form and have all his powers restored...

- Isengard will have a terribly upgraded Saruman with unbeleivable powers, doing Sauron's wishes...

- Moria would naturally summon the Balrog from the depths of Moria, as one of Sauron's most powerful "tools" ever imaginable...

- Rhûn/Harad would have Alatar, and if we split this faction in two: Alatar for Rhûn and Pallando for Harad (See below from Encyclopedia of Arda). First idea was a Dragon, but I'd like to keep dragons low in numbers in our version of Middle Earth... We still have Drogoth for Moria faction, which can't be scrapped really since it's such a good model and fits the fotress middle monument theme. And not to be forgotten, the somewhat "lore hostile" summon of Smaug. So we should definitely not add more than absolutely needed in terms of Dragons =p

Alatar: Alatar was one of the original three Wizards selected by the Valar for the journey from Valinor to Middle-earth (the other two being Curumo and Olórin - Saruman and Gandalf). When these three had been chosen, Yavanna selected Aiwendil (later called Radagast) to join them, and Alatar selected his friend Pallando to travel with him into the Outer Lands. Alatar and Pallando arrived in Middle-earth dressed in sea-blue. For this reason, they were together given the name Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. With Saruman, they journeyed into the far east of Middle-earth, but while Saruman returned to the west, Alatar and Pallando did not. Of their fate, we know almost nothing.

Pallando: A Maia of the people of Oromë and a friend to Alatar, Pallando was selected by the Valar as the last of the five beings to be sent eastward across the Great Sea to become Wizards. Alatar and Pallando were together known as the Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. They wandered far from the northwestern shores of Middle-earth, exploring the distant eastern lands. Their fate is never told, but it seems that, like Saruman, they fell into darkness, and Tolkien hints that they were responsible for the founding of strange cults in distant lands.


This would make the mod very true to the movies and the lore, and it would extend gameplay in the best possible way. I can't guarantee we can pull it off, but we will surely try our best! :mellow: More details later on. We have far too many things to attend to before we get here, so it might not be until Beta 4.8.

Edited by Nazgûl, 05 November 2009 - 01:18 AM.

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
SEE_Banner_2008.jpg
SEE-Team_Leader.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#2 RalphDamiani

RalphDamiani
  • Members
  • 62 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:14 AM

This is an excellent system if it can be worked out, to say the least!

#3 RalphDamiani

RalphDamiani
  • Members
  • 62 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:37 AM

Now for minor lore nitpicks, if you don't mind, although everything sounds good enough as is.

I think Saruman would be powerful enough to supplant Sauron, if he ever acquired the Ring. Those mighty among the Eldar and the Maiar would not be corrupted in the same fashion the king of Men were. They would probably become Lords of the Rings on their own, as Sauron's malice would corrupt and torment their souls, perhaps with greed and lust of power, but not enough to enslave them to his will. Both Galadriel and Gandalf allude to this, when they are offered the Ring.

In the case of Alatar and Pallando, that is disputable, for they could have been lost in many ways before that. They could be evil spirits, dark sorcerers (like the Mouth of Sauron, whose origin we never learned), Necromancers or even treacherous allies like Saruman, although Tolkien expressed they probably failed in different ways. Most likely they would challenge the Dark Lord themselves.

The Balrog is one that irks me the most, I don't see it wielding the One Ring or having a particular interest to rule over others. It seems to me they are spirits of destruction and hatred, weapons of war devoid of this sort of ambition. My suggestion would be a similar system in which once goblins acquire the ring, they need to travel the map in order to deliver it to Sauron, which then could arrive himself. Keeping the Balrog strictly as a devastating spell seems more in line with the lore.

But either way works just great! :)

Edited by RalphDamiani, 05 November 2009 - 01:40 AM.


#4 Guest_Guest_*

Guest_Guest_*
  • Guests

Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:04 AM

The idea is that when you gain the Ring, you'd gain access to Frodo & Sam, with Sam most likely as a slave unit of Frodo, protecting him, and from here on, you'd need to pass several waypoints on the map, before exiting off screen and start a timer. If the evil factions have not defeated good before timer runs out, it would mean Frodo have reached Mount Doom and destroyed the Ring.

Shouldn't the bad factions be able to find frodo and sam like they would find Gollum? And kill them and get the ring for themself? Having to defeat the faction before frodo and sam goe off the map is a bit unfair.

Frodo and sam could have skills like (Dress up as a orc) So when they approch the enemy camp the enemy units and towers wouldn't notice them. Only the player on the other team (If you play against a human) Could see them and attack them, since they stand out only being two orcs that can't be selectable.

I don't think instant defeat is good if the timer goes to zero. Because, you can kill Sauron if he is summoned. Maybe something like every enemy building looses 50% of hit points. All enemy units will be in fear for the rest of the game. No Sauron can be summoned, and no evil heroes such as the nazguls will be summonable. In the long term it would mean defeat for the bad team. But getting Frodo and Sam to the end of the map without getting noticed should be hard. And they shouldn't be able to fight back against a battalion of orcs.

They couldn't in the movies, so if the enemy spots them they would get killed instantly. Also Frodo could have some skills that could be used to avoid the enemies.

Frodo
-Put on ring - Invincible to enemy units and towers. Won't work against ringwraiths, or wraiths on the maps.
-Ring corruption - The ring puts Frodo in a state of anger, like in the movies on mount doom. He suddenly got very powerful when Gollum took the ring from him. When you peform the skill Frodo could be screaming GET AWAY, or NOOO. Lines taken from the movies when Sam or someone else annoys him. Gollum and Sam.

And if one of the nazguls are close to frodo and Sam. They won't be able to to move. And if the nazguls spot them, they are done for. That way it won't be very easy getting through to the other side of the map. Of course if you are mordor and you suspect the elves or whatever faction has the ring. You just place out the nazguls in a line all over the map.

What do you think about this idea, maybe a bit complicated?

#5 Nazgûl

Nazgûl

    S.E.E. Team Leader

  • Hosted
  • 10,554 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Projects:BFME2 - Nazgûl's Special Extended Edition
  •  Veteran

Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:22 AM

Hehe yeah and too much micro management. You also need to read the idea more closely... I didn't say you have to kill Frodo/Sam before they leave the map, you have to defeat the good faction before the timer runs out. This timer could be any value... like 30 mins... 60 mins... We'll balance that, and you'll have enough time to really make an effort to win. Should the timer run out, we'll try to have some sort of prolongued end for the evil faction, by putting all units in fear mode and making them easy targets, but still having to destroy them before game ends. Remember though that it's all about the Ring and should you obtain it, that means you should be "half way" to victory. Gollum can still be used to steal the Ring back though, and also... like I said - Frodo/Sam would have to make certain waypoints on map before leaving, which makes them possible targets.

This is complicated enough and if we pull it off, it will be the closest thing to the movies ever possible. I think many fans would love it, but off course not all of them/you. But it doesn't matter what we do, as there will always be another opinion :p

I like the idea of us knowing very little of Alatar and Pallando, and for this useage, they fit perfectly, because of that...

About the Balrog... it all have to do with them all being Maiar, and the fact that ultimately, they'd still be servants of Sauron, so basically HE would be wielding THEM, through his ring of power, rather than them wielding the Ring. But I bet Sûl can explain this better, as it's his interpretaion of the lore - I just happen to share it completely :)

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
SEE_Banner_2008.jpg
SEE-Team_Leader.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#6 yams in a can

yams in a can

    Friend of the Right Side

  • Members
  • 391 posts
  • Location:Henrico,Virginia

Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:35 AM

Firstly, I am pretty sure, in the lore, that for a person to ever wield the ring, only applying to Maia, they would have to defeat Sauron, and the only way to do that is to destroy the ring, so... ??? I still like Saruman for the idea, and I think it should be implemented. Remember, Saruman would not work for Sauron with Sauron's ring, so he would not be a ring hero if he was still serving Sauron.

I love how you came up with the Gollum idea, no understanding to why you ever thought about getting rid of him. For the balrog, it could be used as an offering, summoning him and Smaug, as they could not use it. It would make much sense for them to serve the goblins due to them using the ring as an offering. Maybe a blarog riding Smaug :). The balrogs did ride dragons! They just rode dragons without wings, and those drragons were HUGE, as all were.

Posted Image
To the professor, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.


Posted Image
Posted Image

-yams in a can


#7 Nazgûl

Nazgûl

    S.E.E. Team Leader

  • Hosted
  • 10,554 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Projects:BFME2 - Nazgûl's Special Extended Edition
  •  Veteran

Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:43 AM

Eeer? I never ever said I was getting rid of Gollum? =p

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
SEE_Banner_2008.jpg
SEE-Team_Leader.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#8 khamulrulz

khamulrulz

    title available

  • Members
  • 469 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:14 AM

love it. for saruman, he would replace the fortress saruman, right? i hope the same is done for alatar, because i want the blue wizards as regular heroes.

imagine two balrogs for moria at the same time: one with the ring and one as a summon :)

i hope the ring heroes get really awesome powers
Posted Image
Posted Image

#9 Guest_Guest_*

Guest_Guest_*
  • Guests

Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:01 PM

Noooo don't remove saruman and the other new ring heroes from the recruitable heroes list. Maybe you could make it so that when Saruman gets the ring his weak version dissapears from the map and he becomes uber powerful and comes out from the fortress. :)

#10 Archon

Archon

    Ethereal Chaos

  • Members
  • 555 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Projects:Wars of Arda mod
  •  Expert Marksman

Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:19 PM

I think once the Ring is brought back to the fortress, "normal" Saruman will be uber-buffed and turned into "Ring-Hero" Saruman.

And also, I'm fairly certain the Balrog will be removed as a summons.
_______Posted Image_______Posted Image

#11 khamulrulz

khamulrulz

    title available

  • Members
  • 469 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:49 PM

what i meant by "replacing" saruman was that when you get the ring, the fortress saruman would change into the ring hero - that way there aren't two sarumans running around like the current situation with galadriel.

Edited by khamulrulz, 05 November 2009 - 01:50 PM.

Posted Image
Posted Image

#12 Arthadan

Arthadan
  • Members
  • 215 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:51 PM

I agree about Sauron and Saruman as Ring heroes, even the balrog fits the bill.

But for Alatar and Pallando, I'm not so sure. One of them would be OK, but since Tolkien pointed out several posibilities for them (mainly corrupted as Saruman or killed fighting the Shadow), having the two of them corrupted is too much. Anyway, unlike Saruman, Sauron and the Balrog, they were not in northwestern Middle-earth and were not looking for the One; so having them appearing from the other side of the world just because some guy million of kilometres away find the One is kind of strange. Using common sense and following the lore, if any warrior of harad or Rhûn in a Mordor army would have found the One, a Nazgûl on fell beast would have been sent to pick it and deliver it to Sauron (or Sauron himself would have gone to take it himself).

It could work like this: once the Harad or Rhûn faction has the One, they have access to a new hero (a nazgûl riding a horse rather than a fellbeast for balancing issues). Then, same as Frodo & Sam (he has to exit the map with the One passing by several waypoints and when it's done a counter would begin and when it expires, good factions would have serious drawbacks OR Sauron can be recruited cheaper and/or in less time than Mordor faction).

About the system for the good factions, it sounds pretty good but also pretty complicated to do. Good luck with it!
Posted Image

Posted Image

#13 Nazgûl

Nazgûl

    S.E.E. Team Leader

  • Hosted
  • 10,554 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Projects:BFME2 - Nazgûl's Special Extended Edition
  •  Veteran

Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:58 PM

lol, you still haven't read it thoroughly... :)

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
SEE_Banner_2008.jpg
SEE-Team_Leader.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#14 Námo

Námo

    ***

  • Project Team
  • 1,291 posts
  • Projects:Middle-earth Lore, Cartography & Linguistics
  •  ...

Posted 05 November 2009 - 03:16 PM


This is all in sync with Sûl's interpretation of what The One Ring truly is - the incarnation of the true powers of Sauron ...

:)


... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
... a star shines on the hour of our meeting ...
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#15 Prince of the Dark Forest

Prince of the Dark Forest
  • Members
  • 249 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 05:57 PM

Perhaps you could give the normal Galadriel some of the Ring Hero Galadreil's powers so they don't go to waste... :)
Ignited into the world in a flash of lightning, it gleams faintly in the heart of its mother, wood. It begins as an ember, a mere wisp of heat and colour. Its chance of survival at this critical moment is minute, yet it fights on, against the unforgiving cold, against the depths of night and against its mortal enemy: rain.

#16 Nazgûl

Nazgûl

    S.E.E. Team Leader

  • Hosted
  • 10,554 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Projects:BFME2 - Nazgûl's Special Extended Edition
  •  Veteran

Posted 05 November 2009 - 08:23 PM

love it. for saruman, he would replace the fortress saruman, right? i hope the same is done for alatar, because i want the blue wizards as regular heroes.
imagine two balrogs for moria at the same time: one with the ring and one as a summon :xd:
i hope the ring heroes get really awesome powers

- Saruman is Saruman, and there is only ONE of him. Thus - we won't have two, no! The regular Saruman would BECOME (hence the description in my post as "upgraded") the Ring Hero, doing Sauron's biddings - again, according to Sûl's (and my) interpretation of what the Ring really is.
- There won't be two Balrogs either. The existing Balrog would only be summonable by a "science" that you gain in Moria faction when obtaining the Ring. He's already almost a too powerful unit to have as regular resummonable power... and since the Balrogs were in fact Maiar too (like Saruman, Gandalf, Alatar, Pallando and Radagast), we think the Balrog in Moria would defenitely somehow be able to do Sauron's biddings, if it would get a hold of the Ring. OR, we keep the Balrog like now, but just like in Saruman's case - we make it uber strong if the Ring is obtained...
- The idea is that all ring heroes of the evil factions would be awefully strong indeed, by channeling the power that Sauron put in the Ring... and that's why Good must find it, and destroy it ;)


I agree about Sauron and Saruman as Ring heroes, even the balrog fits the bill. But for Alatar and Pallando, I'm not so sure. One of them would be OK, but since Tolkien pointed out several posibilities for them...

That's why I like the idea of using them for this purpose. It doesn't have to be perfect (it can't be). But I think this is good enough =)

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
SEE_Banner_2008.jpg
SEE-Team_Leader.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#17 khamulrulz

khamulrulz

    title available

  • Members
  • 469 posts

Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:10 PM

i like it. i just think that if saruman/alatar/balrog got their hands on the ring, they wouldn't be taking orders from sauron, but would become the new "lord of the rings". lol does the ring fit on teh balrog's hand?
Posted Image
Posted Image

#18 Sûlherokhh

Sûlherokhh

    Sagacious Engineer

  • Project Team
  • 3,754 posts
  • Location:Central Germany
  • Projects:S.E.E., Sage A.I., Code Advisor
  •  'Axe'er of the Gordic Knot

Posted 06 November 2009 - 10:57 AM

The ring can change size. It was even shown in the movie how it shrank to fit isildur.

bannerreal01mittelit3.jpg
Axed Head and A.I. Coder for S.E.E. and ... stuff

".. coding is basically boring. What's fun is finding out how things work, take them apart and then put them together in ways that were not intended nor even conceived."


#19 Nazgûl

Nazgûl

    S.E.E. Team Leader

  • Hosted
  • 10,554 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Projects:BFME2 - Nazgûl's Special Extended Edition
  •  Veteran

Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:22 AM

Yeah, I assume it would take any form to fit any bearer... that it chooses

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
SEE_Banner_2008.jpg
SEE-Team_Leader.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#20 Sûlherokhh

Sûlherokhh

    Sagacious Engineer

  • Project Team
  • 3,754 posts
  • Location:Central Germany
  • Projects:S.E.E., Sage A.I., Code Advisor
  •  'Axe'er of the Gordic Knot

Posted 06 November 2009 - 11:40 AM

Saruman should become the 'multi-coloured'. It was said in the books that when Gandalf visited the now evil Saruman, he had changed the simple white garment into something whitish that shimmered in the colours of the rainbow.
Something like GaladrielTheRingHero, just not as extreme. What do you think?

bannerreal01mittelit3.jpg
Axed Head and A.I. Coder for S.E.E. and ... stuff

".. coding is basically boring. What's fun is finding out how things work, take them apart and then put them together in ways that were not intended nor even conceived."





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users