28 replies to this topic

[isledebananas]

Well I just noticed that the plan for beta 5 is to have both the Citadel Guards and the Fountain Guards. Technically they were both the elite of Gondor though Fountain more so even though they never fought.

Since the Citadel Guards use both bow and sword much like their Rohan Royal Guard counterparts I thought it would make more sense for them to be the "elite horde" unit for Gondor. In the movies there were quite of few of these guys enough to make actual hordes like in the game(Fountain Guards only had 4 guys). Also if they were regular units the archers and swordsmen would be made obsolete. Why would people want to build them if there is a stronger unit with a toggle. Making them as a weaker elite would be kind of redundant. I know you guys don't have the model to implement this yet, but when you do.

However, I still like the Fountain Guard mostly cause they look so much more awesome. Since there are only 4 of these guys maybe they could be made into stand alone units like the berserkers of Isengard. There should be a limit of only 4 of these max at any time since that is how it seemed in the movie. Since there are so few they should be really quite strong. I believe maybe they should have some kind of special abilities like they are stronger when all are together or when they are next to Aragorn(since only the King could command them). Also maybe they give a slight kind of buff to troops around them as they were said to impress people around them with their presence. However they wouldn't be like regular heroes as if they die you can't respawn them just make another to replace them that start out at level 1.

I think it would kind of cool as it would add some uniqueness to Gondor.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

I've done a lot of research into this, but it seems Citadel guards never actually used bows. Both Fountain and Citadel Guards used spears (or pikes whatever) and swords. However, they are clearly two different units as the Citadel guards have a numerorean winged helmet and the Fountain Guards have a more elaborate peacock feather helmet.

I would like Citadel guards in the game, but not as another spear-type unit (because we already have one basic and one elite) and also not as an archer-type unit (because it isn't true to any lore as far as I know and we already have a basic and elite ranged unit). Perhaps as an elite swordsman unit, leaving Fountain Guards to be the elite spear unit.

However, this is just my opinion and I'm not sure what Nazgul wants to do about them.

EDIT: Gamesworkshop has Citadel guards with bows and swords (but can the be used as a good source?). Also, most mods which make use of Citadel guards have them as an archer/part-archer type unit but I disagree.

Edited by Prince of the Dark Forest, 11 November 2009 - 06:44 PM.

[isledebananas]

Well my recollection on the books is not so great. However, since Nazgul said this is foremost a movie mod. In the movies they seemed to have both swords and bows and didn't have as elaborate helmets with the very defined "wings". They looked more like regular gondor soldiers but had capes and more elaborate armor. If you watch RotK you can see them and their better defined their. The armor Pippin gets in the movies is more close to the Citadel Guard represented there.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Are there any screens you could provide to show evidence of them carrying bows?

See here: http://www.alleycats...rmorCitadel.htm

It shows some LOTR costumes with multple images of the Citadel Guard attire. He wields a spear and has a sword as a seconadry weapon.

[isledebananas]

I checked a site with screens but I couldn't find any but the amount of screens they had were limited. However, they have to serve some function. We can't have them both as spearmen it would be redundant. I like your idea of them being elite swordsmen. They seemed to have shields too so they could also be the kind of elite defense unit with some kind of shield wall ability. Leaving the Fountain Guard as mainly for dealing out damage.

I still think the Fountain Guard should be limited to 4 as they were considered the most elite. Also it seemed like that was all they had was 4 in the movies. Maybe as a prerequisite since they would be so strong is that only after you have Aragorn can you actually build any of them.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

I know that having 3 spearmen units would be redundant, but if there isn't any proof that citadel guards used bows (apart from Games Workshop) then I'm not for it.

EDIT:

"....The Citadel Guards carried the weapons of the regular soldier - sword and spear - but like the Fountain Guard they had no shield....The Citadel Guards wore the same outfit as ordinary Gondorian soldiers, but this was enhanced with a gold-edged black tunic worn under the cuirass and a black cloak with gold embroidery; these would have indicated to all their elevated position within the military structure, as would their helmet, which featured a bronze star device on their noseguard and the brass wings that had been riveted on their sides...."

(Page 160-161, LOTR: Weapons and Warfare)

No bow according to movie-based book LOTR: Weapons and Warfare. Only spear + Shield. I suggest an elite sword unit with a spear toggle/temporary power (with increased damage or something)... What say you?

Edited by Prince of the Dark Forest, 11 November 2009 - 08:48 PM.

[isledebananas]

Well I remember Nazgul himself saying somewhere that GW is also a viable source however behind Movies and Books/Lore. I agree with swordsmen concept but I would rather have them more defensive as you said they have a shield right there. Since they are Citadel Guard and from what you said they come with a shield it makes more sense that they are kind of the elite defensive unit able to take lots of punishment. Its just when I see the Fountain Guard they look like some guys who are more intimidating and more adept at killing. I think its mainly the fact that they have that cloth covering their faces up to the eyes making them look like ninjas.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Well, balance and variety wise, I don't mind them having shields... Only:

''The Citadel Guards carried the weapons of the regular soldier - sword and spear - but like the Fountain Guard they had no shield...''

[isledebananas]

Well I don't really know then. Nazgul has them set up for V 5 on that list though there is no model. However I don't really see what kind of part they can play. By their definition they are an elite unit. If they are regulars they will just end up making either the spearmen or the swordsmen obsolete since they should be stronger.

However I guess they either have to be scrapped completely or make them the actual elite horde. However, the Fountain Guard model is too cool not to use. So the Citadel Guard could be the elite and the Fountain could just be stand alone like berserkers I guess.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

The text only says they carried the weapons of a regular soldier. They are still elite units. Just enforcing the fact that they don't use bows.

[khamulrulz]

i think they could be an elite swordsmen unit. i wouldn't have them be an anti-hero horde though. i would have fountain guards and koda to be the only units limited in numbers for gondor - after the split

[Nazgûl]

Hehe this is EXACTLY why Gondor needs to be separated from Rohan. This faction is simply too cramped with units

Currently we have both Fountain Guards and Rohan Royal Guards, and with the Citadel Guard, we'd have 3 elite units. That's way too much... I kinda like the idea of strongly limiting the Fountain Guard. Either as one horde, or perhaps even as stand alone units, like a mixture between a hero and the berserkers of Isengard. I think it's a rather good idea that would add some variety, and be more true to the movies for sure. In their place, we could have a slightly modified version of the swordsmen, using the banner carrier model with cape (rigged to the swordsman skeleton/anims), as the Citadel Guard elite hordes =)

[MirkwoodArcher]

I too agree with making the Fountain Guards stronger and limited in how many on the battlefiled. If they guarded the White Tree, they MUST'VE been the best units Gondor had---as guarding the dead tree is important.

It's a good idea. Four units at a time, but with great power.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Great! So the Citadel Guards will probably be a swordsman unit? Also, I agree about the Fountain Guards being like Stand-alone units.

[MirkwoodArcher]

[off-topic]Same time posting! [/off-topic]

[isledebananas]

Mirkwood that thing about the dead tree. But its so true though back in the old days the strongest warriors often protected completely inane things.

[MirkwoodArcher]

Mirkwood that thing about the dead tree. But its so true though back in the old days the strongest warriors often protected completely inane things.

It is a pretty funny thing that four elite fighters had to guard a dead tree. I don't think it was going to move anywhere and if the Orcs took it, oh well. In the end, Aragorn and Gandalf found a new sapling on top of the mountain, so the poor guards were wasting their time.

Other than that logical fact, they should be elite units.

Edited by MirkwoodArcher, 11 November 2009 - 11:04 PM.

[isledebananas]

Well they replaced the dead one with the new one and they started guarding that instead. It was kind of the symbol of the Kingship of Gondor was the White Tree. Who knows maybe sometimes drunkards try to take a leak on it or something and they have to protect it.

[MirkwoodArcher]

Well they replaced the dead one with the new one and they started guarding that instead. It was kind of the symbol of the Kingship of Gondor was the White Tree. Who knows maybe sometimes drunkards try to take a leak on it or something and they have to protect it.

Yeah, they had to protect it in hopes that the rightful king would return.

That's porbably about it. But, the tree was pretty much dead anyway.

[yams in a can]

Fountain guards should be limited to one. They also had mithril helmets brought from Numenor. This will make even more sense for only 1 battalion, as Gondor did not have the means to recreate the helmets. Actually, the helmets were the helmets of the mariners of Numenor.