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DC Sniper Executed 7 Years Later


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#21 Allathar

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 03:51 PM

Besides, what do you want to proof with keeping the bastard alive? That you're better than him? Already knew that, tyvm. If you want to be better by letting him live, you're not punishing him, nor does it satisfy the family of the victim. It's also just a waste of resources.

@Omega: by your logic, soldiers in Afghanistan should die too, because they shot a Taliban. Their commanding officers? They too. The government who ordered them to Afghanistan in the first place? The tax-payers who support the government? Your logic doesn't make sense. No, we kill the bastard because he killed in cold blood someone innocent. No regrets. We also don't kill him to save money, we kill him as a punishment. Saving money is just one of the reasons to kill him rather than locking him up.

I don't see whats good or redeeming about vengeance.


Good? Arguable. Redeeming? Probably not. Satisfying? Hell yes.

I also dont see how death is a punishment. I dont believe theres anything after, so its not like hes going to regret doing it for the rest of time as he would if locked up, alone.


I don't care if he regrets his actions, that's up to him. Even if he did regret, it doesn't change anything for the rest of us. Really, what do you want to proof by locking him up?
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#22 Mathijs

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:05 PM

What do you want to prove by killing him?

#23 OmegaBolt

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:05 PM

Besides, what do you want to proof with keeping the bastard alive? That you're better than him? Already knew that, tyvm. If you want to be better by letting him live, you're not punishing him, nor does it satisfy the family of the victim. It's also just a waste of resources.

I'm not proving anything, I don't give a toss about the family just like I don't about the murderer. Like I told you death is no punishment. There goes the resources again...

@Omega: by your logic, soldiers in Afghanistan should die too, because they shot a Taliban. Their commanding officers? They too. The government who ordered them to Afghanistan in the first place? The tax-payers who support the government?

Well theres no way I side with America, or Britain, on going into Iraq etc.

We also don't kill him to save money, we kill him as a punishment.

I just told you that death is not a punishment and you already said yourself "it's also just a waste of resources", so yes, you do it for money/equivalent.

Satisfying? Hell yes.

Then you're as bad as the murderer. I'm sure he found it satisfying too. :sleep:

Really, what do you want to proof by locking him up?

Uhh, I dont want to proove anything. You?

Hmm your post was one big contradiction. :/

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#24 Romanul

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:33 PM

What do you want to prove by killing him?

Nothing.Its the same idea like in China:"We can't catch all corrupt people,so why wouldn't we take 3% and kill them so we can make the others have fear?".Fear won't solve a thing.Death won't solve a thing.

If you kill a guy,its instant punishment.Its done.The end.

If you close him in a jail,its long-term punishment.He has a lot of time to think on what he did wrong,and he'll mostly loose any good reason to think that life has a point.

also,@olli:Look at Sweden's psychological regime for those who killed/raped/did this kind of degree bad stuff.Its luxury,BUT,its psychological torture.It can bring back some brains and make him be a good taxpayer.Way more efficient,I think.

#25 Allathar

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:57 PM

What do you want to prove by killing him?


That his crime didn't go unpunished, and that he's a waste of resources and shouldn't be allowed to live.

also,@olli:Look at Sweden's psychological regime for those who killed/raped/did this kind of degree bad stuff.Its luxury,BUT,its psychological torture.It can bring back some brains and make him be a good taxpayer.Way more efficient,I think.


We spend our taxmoney so criminals can have luxury in prison, so when they're free again they can repay the taxes? Sorry, but that logic fails. Also, prison won't bring back some brains, because if they had any kind of mental capacity whatsoever, he wouldn't have killed/raped/whatever in the first place.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#26 Mathijs

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:16 PM

God, you're ignorant as fuck.

#27 Allathar

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:55 PM

Welcome to the cold, hard reality.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#28 OmegaBolt

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:57 PM

Thats Revora!

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#29 Mathijs

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:58 PM

You mean the cold hard reality that drives most of those ''mentally disabled'' criminals over the edge? Because I don't know what rock you crawled from under, but last I checked people don't invoke their mental illnesses upon themselves.

Portraying anything located a little left from the centre as delusional never gets old, does it? Even though you've been proven wrong time and again. I'm sorry, it's just not enough of an argument it seems.

Edited by Matias, 13 November 2009 - 06:00 PM.


#30 olli

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 06:01 PM

I think that humans as a race have become so arrogant over the past 200 years or so.

It's all about thinking you're so much "better" than someone else on the grounds of judging these things subjectively, i.e. it hasn't happened to you. It's down right arrogant to sit there and say "We can't stoop to that level. We are no better than him" when it has fuck all to do with you. You have no emotional connection to the victim, the victim’s family or the criminal and because of that you don't feel guilty in stating that murderer has a right to life.

Once something like this happens to you, I can guarantee you will change your tune. Big time. I don't think you will be stood there saying "Well I think it is just barbaric to give someone a lethal injection" when you are facing a criminal in court who might have disembowelled and mutilated one of your family members because they had different colour skin, or because their clothes were nicer, or because they wanted to prove themselves for a gang.

What will happen though is millions of years of human biology and raw human emotion will kick in. You will want him to suffer so that your feelings of indescribable anger can diminish. You will want the peace of mind to know that that person no longer is breathing anymore, no longer living in the same world as you, because it will be an insult. Why should that cunt be allowed to breathe air, when your loved and treasured family member is no longer alive?
Once something like that happens to you, I'm sure you would want to tear that person apart with your bare hands. There is a reason why we feel like that, we have evolved to. It's not just somebody being "barbaric".
I really don't see why people view these things subjectively and then condemn the people who feel differently, because they feel it makes them look like a better, more intellectual above every one else person because they are more concerned about human rights and the right to live.
Until something like this happens to you and you're faced with this situation, lets see if you are 100% content with some vile puke stain spending x amount of years in a cell, receiving more luxuries that they should. And then being released back into society. Alive. Once again free to roam the earth...

Oh and I didn't even mention parole. Good behaviour? "Yeah, he seems like he has behaved. Naughty man! Don't do it again! Ok, we're letting you go now. Have fun!"
How are you going to feel? Stand there once again and wholeheartedly say "Well, I'm glad the justice system has worked. That criminal that slaughtered a member of my family in cold blood for no valid reason, has served some time away from society in prison. And because he has kept himself to himself, he has been released back into the world. I'm sure he is rehabilitated and has reconsidered his actions and won’t do it again. I forgive him and no longer have any negative feelings towards him."

I don't think so.
Experiences change and shape our behaviour and thoughts. It's not just think one thing, one set of moral codes and then it is all set in stone. All the time our behaviour changes, our thought process are changed because of the environment around us and through everyday situations and interactions.

I'm sure that the victim’s families were law abiding moral citizens, and may have held similar views in the sense they wouldn't want to cause harm to anyone. But then one day, say your son was on his way to school and was shot in the head. How can any one justify killing a child? If that happened to you how could you stand there and still hold those same views? That experience is going to radically change your behaviour and thought process.

I can tell you one thing; you're not going to be sat in your all tolerating, and subjective side of the fence thinking you are morally superior anymore.

Edited by olli, 13 November 2009 - 06:06 PM.

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#31 Vortigern

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 07:14 PM

Of course we can't know what it's like to face someone who killed a member of your family, but we can attempt to look at the situation with logic and morality in mind. That's just the best we can do, so there's no point in you telling us we don't understand. All life is one big 'best we can do' situation.

Allathar: criminality is not a mental disorder. Sometimes it is, and those people need help, not universal condemnation. A paranoid schizophrenic kills someone. You can a) throw them in prison and let them rot with the thieves, junkies and mobsters, or b) send them to a facility wherein their disorder can be dealt with, maybe even to the point that they can be healed of it. Anyway, the point is this: breaking the law does not make you insane or mentally challenged. Often criminals are extremely clever, but have endured severe and painful conditions in their life that have driven them to take a dim view of humanity. The more you generalise, the weaker your argument becomes.

Besides which, I believe prison should be at least as much about rehabilitation as punishment. I agree, there's nothing to be gained by locking a man away only to let him out again when his sentence is carried out, but there is a great deal to be gained if he can be successfully remade into a man fit to integrate with society. His life will be difficult because people will no doubt be aware of his past, but he will at least have a chance.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of criminals who turn on their former friends for witness protection or reduced sentences.
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#32 Phil

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:08 PM

Besides, what do you want to proof with keeping the bastard alive? That you're better than him?

Yes.

If you want to be better by letting him live, you're not punishing him [...]

And what please is the prison sentence?

[..] nor does it satisfy the family of the victim.

Fortunately, satisfying the family of the victim is not the goal of punishment (and criminal law in general).
I find it astounding how many people still don't understand that.

It's also just a waste of resources.

That's just cruel. How can you seriously measure human life against money?



[...] and that he's a waste of resources and shouldn't be allowed to live.

And who the fuck are you to judge who is allowed to live and who isn't? What qualifies you as the arbiter over life and death? Heck, what qualifies any individual on earth to make such a decision?

Also: You're breathing my air. You have flawed moral viewpoints. You're a waste of resources and shouldn't be allowed to live.
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I think that humans as a race have become so arrogant over the past 200 years or so.

It's all about thinking you're so much "better" than someone else on the grounds of judging these things subjectively, i.e. it hasn't happened to you. It's down right arrogant to sit there and say "We can't stoop to that level. We are no better than him" when it has fuck all to do with you. You have no emotional connection to the victim, the victim’s family or the criminal and because of that you don't feel guilty in stating that murderer has a right to life.

Once something like this happens to you, I can guarantee you will change your tune. Big time. I don't think you will be stood there saying "Well I think it is just barbaric to give someone a lethal injection" when you are facing a criminal in court who might have disembowelled and mutilated one of your family members because they had different colour skin, or because their clothes were nicer, or because they wanted to prove themselves for a gang.

What will happen though is millions of years of human biology and raw human emotion will kick in. You will want him to suffer so that your feelings of indescribable anger can diminish. You will want the peace of mind to know that that person no longer is breathing anymore, no longer living in the same world as you, because it will be an insult. Why should that cunt be allowed to breathe air, when your loved and treasured family member is no longer alive?
Once something like that happens to you, I'm sure you would want to tear that person apart with your bare hands. There is a reason why we feel like that, we have evolved to. It's not just somebody being "barbaric".
I really don't see why people view these things subjectively and then condemn the people who feel differently, because they feel it makes them look like a better, more intellectual above every one else person because they are more concerned about human rights and the right to live.
Until something like this happens to you and you're faced with this situation, lets see if you are 100% content with some vile puke stain spending x amount of years in a cell, receiving more luxuries that they should. And then being released back into society. Alive. Once again free to roam the earth...

Oh and I didn't even mention parole. Good behaviour? "Yeah, he seems like he has behaved. Naughty man! Don't do it again! Ok, we're letting you go now. Have fun!"
How are you going to feel? Stand there once again and wholeheartedly say "Well, I'm glad the justice system has worked. That criminal that slaughtered a member of my family in cold blood for no valid reason, has served some time away from society in prison. And because he has kept himself to himself, he has been released back into the world. I'm sure he is rehabilitated and has reconsidered his actions and won’t do it again. I forgive him and no longer have any negative feelings towards him."

I don't think so.
Experiences change and shape our behaviour and thoughts. It's not just think one thing, one set of moral codes and then it is all set in stone. All the time our behaviour changes, our thought process are changed because of the environment around us and through everyday situations and interactions.

I'm sure that the victim’s families were law abiding moral citizens, and may have held similar views in the sense they wouldn't want to cause harm to anyone. But then one day, say your son was on his way to school and was shot in the head. How can any one justify killing a child? If that happened to you how could you stand there and still hold those same views? That experience is going to radically change your behaviour and thought process.

I can tell you one thing; you're not going to be sat in your all tolerating, and subjective side of the fence thinking you are morally superior anymore.

Thanks for proving exactly why we have independent courts in a (more or less) objective judicial system instead of the mob law from the past.
People need to be judged by their guilt, not the effect of their actions or the desire for vengeance of those involved.

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#33 Puppeteer

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:30 PM

You can a) throw them in prison and let them rot with the thieves, junkies and mobsters, or b) send them to a facility wherein their disorder can be dealt with, maybe even to the point that they can be healed of it.

Or c) murder them give them the death sentence, and remain ignorant of the cause and effect linking schizophrenia with abnormal behaviour.
I can see why, when gripped with the throes of grief, the victim's family might want the ultimate retribution, but we all know that extreme emotions blur the ability to think clearly and rationally. One does not need to lose a loved one to feel this - mere anger is a more moderate representation of this. Not all of the victims' families want the death penalty. I have often seen on BBC News that the family wants the criminal to understand their pain, realise their wrongs and have that on their conscience. Empathy knives through everyone's conscience - in this case, murdering the criminal would mean he never realises the pain he's caused.
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#34 OmegaBolt

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:45 PM

Well didnt bother reading it all but;

It's all about thinking you're so much "better" than someone else on the grounds of judging these things subjectively, i.e. it hasn't happened to you. It's down right arrogant to sit there and say "We can't stoop to that level. We are no better than him" when it has fuck all to do with you. You have no emotional connection to the victim, the victim’s family or the criminal and because of that you don't feel guilty in stating that murderer has a right to life.

No, I've never been in the situation but I can guarantee the people there don't really know what they want. They may feel like they want the killer dead, but really they just want the killed back. Causing more death doesn't solve anything, which they probably dont see in their distraught state. Its up to outside views to make sure "the right thing" gets done and not just having revenge at the wave of a hand because of emotional distress.

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#35 Allathar

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:55 PM

Besides which, I believe prison should be at least as much about rehabilitation as punishment. I agree, there's nothing to be gained by locking a man away only to let him out again when his sentence is carried out, but there is a great deal to be gained if he can be successfully remade into a man fit to integrate with society. His life will be difficult because people will no doubt be aware of his past, but he will at least have a chance.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of criminals who turn on their former friends for witness protection or reduced sentences.


Sorry, but that's not how it works. Theoretically, perhaps, but practically... Not so much. I know a guy who has worked in a prison. His job was to help criminals to rehabilitate. After several years, he couldn't stand it any longer, because time and time again the same old faces kept popping back in, just shortly after they were 'rehabilitated' and released back into society. Really, it was their way of living, they didn't know any else.

Also, what is to gain from locking someone up for a lifetime, or sending a crazed nutjob into a mental clinic where he'll probably be for the rest of his miserable life? At least the death sentence brings some closure and revenge.

Oh, and Matias, name one instance where I was proven wrong. Just one.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#36 OmegaBolt

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:02 PM

Sorry, but that's not how it works. Theoretically, perhaps, but practically... Not so much. I know a guy who has worked in a prison. His job was to help criminals to rehabilitate. After several years, he couldn't stand it any longer, because time and time again the same old faces kept popping back in, just shortly after they were 'rehabilitated' and released back into society. Really, it was their way of living, they didn't know any else.

Says more about the rehabilitation than anything else...

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#37 Allathar

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:25 PM

Sorry, but that's not how it works. Theoretically, perhaps, but practically... Not so much. I know a guy who has worked in a prison. His job was to help criminals to rehabilitate. After several years, he couldn't stand it any longer, because time and time again the same old faces kept popping back in, just shortly after they were 'rehabilitated' and released back into society. Really, it was their way of living, they didn't know any else.

Says more about the rehabilitation than anything else...


Hahaha, so it's the fault of the rehabilitation/the society that they became a criminal?
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#38 Beowulf

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:28 PM

Says more about the rehabilitation than anything else...

Exactly. It doesn't work often enough to be effective.

And I fully agree with olli. To have a real opinion and understanding, you need to have been in this situation. Until you are, you're another bleeding heart douche who doesn't understand real human emotion.

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#39 OmegaBolt

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:30 PM

Hahaha, so it's the fault of the rehabilitation/the society that they became a criminal?

No, its the fault of the rehabilitation that they stayed a criminal, if you'd read.

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#40 Allathar

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:34 PM

If you can read, I'm pointing out that you're basically saying everyone is to blame, except for the criminal himself. That's just not how it works, and a laughable excuse to defend his behaviour. HE choose to be a criminal, and ignore his attempt of rehabilitation. The criminal is to blame, noone else.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP




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