18 replies to this topic

[feld]

In this thread here, P.O. 210877 said:

Well, this is my first post. So for starters, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! PR and Ghost (+ all the staff that I may not know about...) for this EXCELLENT mod. I was born with Star Wars and I hope it will outlive me; for that to happen it takes people like you guys to keep pushing in the right direction (as opposed to the more corporate minded LA developers).

PR responded

Bienvenue, and thanks for registering on our forums. I couldn't agree more with the first part; we're certainly trying to advocate a particular understanding of the GCW that's perhaps becoming overshadowed by the CW in official publications.

I'd like to hear more of PR's ruminations about that "particular understanding" he mentioned. Think it might be useful to the community as we try to give feedback on the mod. So, PR:
1. What is "particular" about the understanding of the GCW that you're trying to bring out in the mod?

2. How do you think that the recent Clone Wars products might be overshadowing this view?

v/r
feld

p.s. If no one responds...I'll know that it was only interesting to me

Edited by feld, 20 November 2009 - 03:33 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Well, there are actually quite a few points that I'm trying to convey with the mod (which always makes it hard for me to describe what PR "is") and my understanding of the GCW era is just one of them. Phoenix Rising is, or tries to be, a holistic account of the events leading up to and briefly succeeding the Galactic Civil War. Unlike a novel, or a comic arc, or even another game, it is not merely a story, but the story of the war between the Empire and Rebellion (at least that's the goal; whether or not we succeed at it I'll leave for the fans to judge). In that sense, it is a compilation of my knowledge on the subject. While I'm not necessarily adding to the story per se, there are plenty of judgment calls that I need to make for the sake of continuity in order to stitch it together into a whole. If the fans don't recognize all of the "P-canon" elements that don't officially exist outside of the mod, then I should consider it a job well done, but there are plenty of them that won't perfectly hold up to sourcing. Hopefully, if I do my job well enough, they just might some day.

As for the second part, I was just alluding to the state of the EU before and after the prequel trilogy. Obviously beforehand, the GCW was the lifeblood of the EU, and all publications were set in that era with very few exceptions (Tales of the Jedi being the main one). Since the prequels, it's sort of flipped, with most new materials being about the CW (to the point where there are dozens of different things named the "Clone Wars"). Now, I'm not somehow bitter about the prequels (it's not my area of expertise either), but I have to wonder how many of the kids that grew up with it alone have had the opportunity to experience masterpieces like TIE Fighter and Dark Forces, read classics like the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire, or own any of the WEG sourcebooks that literally defined the EU. My guess is that most of that stuff isn't even on their radar, but most of it lives again in PR.

[jdk002]

Obviously beforehand, the GCW was the lifeblood of the EU, and all publications were set in that era with very few exceptions (Tales of the Jedi being the main one).

I thought that the Knights of the Old Republic comics were pretty good, though perhaps I might be the only one.

[Ghostrider]

Obviously beforehand, the GCW was the lifeblood of the EU, and all publications were set in that era with very few exceptions (Tales of the Jedi being the main one).

I thought that the Knights of the Old Republic comics were pretty good, though perhaps I might be the only one.

I vaguely remember the stories about Nomi Sunrider and Ulic Quel-Droma (i do remember enjoying them lots though). Really good drama.
And it's still around in the Mod when you occasionally see a reference or two in the history or even edvantages when you find a 'Light-Nexus' or 'Dark-Nexus'.

One question on that though. Nomi Sunrider was married, but Yoda said 'attachments forbidden' - so who made the new rules? - surely Jedi couples work pretty well together!- it did in these comics if I remember.

Edited by Ghostrider, 23 November 2009 - 04:54 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

I thought that the Knights of the Old Republic comics were pretty good, though perhaps I might be the only one.

One question on that though. Nomi Sunrider was married, but Yoda said 'attachments forbidden' - so who made the new rules? - surely Jedi couples work pretty well together!- it did in these comics if I remember.

Not saying they were bad stories or anything, but they weren't paragon Jedi. I'd say the authors made up their own rules as they went along.

[Sûlherokhh]

... but I have to wonder how many of the kids that grew up with it alone have had the opportunity to experience masterpieces like TIE Fighter and Dark Forces, read classics like the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire, or own any of the WEG sourcebooks that literally defined the EU. My guess is that most of that stuff isn't even on their radar, but most of it lives again in PR.

I do remember the WEG books fondly, and not just for the SW-'facts' (which was the first comprehensive material on SW at that time), but also for catching the SW atmosphere. Never will i forget sending a band of anti-empire rogues to the secret development base of the B-Wing series.

[jdk002]

Not saying they were bad stories or anything, but they weren't paragon Jedi. I'd say the authors made up their own rules as they went along.

Nomi Sunrider was nowhere NEAR a paragon Jedi.. she was still bad ass, though.

I personally always liked characters with flaws more than 'perfect' ones anyway..

Edited by jdk002, 24 November 2009 - 04:35 AM.

[BansheeMalthus]

From what I have gathered from reading(alot!!!) THe prohibition against attachements came about after Nomi, Ulic and the like. Their emotional attachements resulted in many bad things so the later councils started prohibiting them. Course this eventually leds to the Fall of Anakin and the restoration of Balance.

[Phoenix Rising]

That's probably a wise retcon.

[Kaleb Graff]

It's odd that I came into Star Wars after the prequel trilogy began, but I definitely prefer the older stuff. Honestly, I like the WEG-style sourcebooks, when half was setting, much better then the recent stuff. I guess there are two problems now: 1. Wizards is used to doing stuff for D&D, where they want to leave a lot of flexibility, and 2. There's so much more being published.

And on P-cannon not being real, I say we revolt and bring down the people who brought us "The Clone Wars" TV series, and put PR as the ruler of Star Wars in their place.

[anakinskysolo]

Yeah, I don't like the new RPG Sourcebooks either, not because I'm a gamer, but because I would like to see them give stats that make sense, and not that stupid battery thing.

[Kaleb Graff]

Yeah, I don't like the new RPG Sourcebooks either, not because I'm a gamer, but because I would like to see them give stats that make sense, and not that stupid battery thing.

That system, is, unfortunately, a holdover from the d20 future starship combat system. That was just plain bad, and I didn't understand why they did it. They seem to have a fascination with making everything work just like character combat. What I want to see is a physically realistic space combat system for an RPG. It's possible, as I have a very good realistic 3D wargame.

[feld]

What I want to see is a physically realistic space combat system for an RPG. It's possible, as I have a very good realistic 3D wargame.

That wouldn't happen to be Ad Astra's Attack Vector by any chance, would it?

v/r
feld

[Phoenix Rising]

Yeah, I don't like the new RPG Sourcebooks either, not because I'm a gamer, but because I would like to see them give stats that make sense, and not that stupid battery thing.

You can multiply batteries by gunners to get the actual gun count. At least that's usually the case, I think it gets inconsistent with bigger ships (that they don't want to blow your tiny player transport out of the water), but I've used it for stat conversions before.

I liked their idea of tactical fire, although not necessarily for the RPG, since I don't play it. Right after Saga SotG came out, I wanted to use it for unit abilities in PR, but I quickly realized that EaW wasn't flexible enough to do that. Another concept for the modder's garbage bin.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 15 December 2009 - 09:38 PM.

[Kaleb Graff]

What I want to see is a physically realistic space combat system for an RPG. It's possible, as I have a very good realistic 3D wargame.

That wouldn't happen to be Ad Astra's Attack Vector by any chance, would it?

v/r
feld

Indeed it is. I got it recently, and am bemoaning the lack of more ships.

The conversion rules say that in larger ships divide the batteries by two because of the lack of facing. I don't like that, as it seems too subjective.

[feld]

What I want to see is a physically realistic space combat system for an RPG. It's possible, as I have a very good realistic 3D wargame.

That wouldn't happen to be Ad Astra's Attack Vector by any chance, would it?

v/r
feld

Indeed it is. I got it recently, and am bemoaning the lack of more ships.

The conversion rules say that in larger ships divide the batteries by two because of the lack of facing. I don't like that, as it seems too subjective.

Roger. I love Attack Vector. It is a great attempt at a really difficult gaming problem. I disagree in detail with some of the game's assumptions and I don't think that engagements between fusion torch equipped human starships will be the sorts of maneuver battles that the game depicts. But I've got to hand it to Ad Astra: they stuck with their assumptions and made the game that followed from them.

v/r
feld

[Kaleb Graff]

I agree too. It's amazing how realisic it is. It may not be accurate to what will happen, but it's a lot closer than anything else I've seen.

[Pellean]

Roger. I love Attack Vector. It is a great attempt at a really difficult gaming problem. I disagree in detail with some of the game's assumptions and I don't think that engagements between fusion torch equipped human starships will be the sorts of maneuver battles that the game depicts. But I've got to hand it to Ad Astra: they stuck with their assumptions and made the game that followed from them.

Hmm- I'll have to take a look at that.

I wanted to say thank you to PR for providing the link to the archive site of WEG sourcebook PDFs. I have owned the Imperial Sourcebook for years (I purchased it without knowing about the RPG) and I hugely enjoyed reading it. WEG and Zahn pretty much sum up what I accept as canon. Now I even try gamemastering a bit. Does anybody else still play this game?

[Kaleb Graff]

Sometimes I play the d20 version. I've tried d6, but since I don't have hardcopies, it usually doesn't get anywhere.