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Rohan Siege


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#1 isledebananas

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 06:44 AM

Now I know the split between Gondor and Rohan is a long time away. However, I was just curious about what ideas some of the rest of you have. Now the movies don't show anything about Rohan's siege abilities, and to my knowledge it never comes up in the books. Even Gondor trebuchet's are only defense installations probably not something they often used on the front lines. However, considering they had the technology and the resources it wouldn't have been hard for them to do it.

Now in BFME 1 they had ents which has some connection because of the movies but only remotely. Also in the first game the buildings were so much weaker it wouldn't be too difficult to successfully demolish buildings with a few hordes. Now I know as a racial uniqueness they could be lacking in this area(much like dwarves lack cavalry), but having siege is pretty important in S.E.E. So much so that it could make or break a successful attack. So personally I think they will need something.

Now Rohan is based on Vikings given their armaments and culture. One Viking siege weapon is a battering ram. However they made some funky looking ones. They would have this weird kind of triangle shaped thing around the actual ram to protect the people who man it. Battering Ram

Also, I read that they used a catapult called the mangonel. Its functions like the current catapults but it looks boxier. Also they came in different sizes ones small enough to be carried by a few strong guys and larger ones requiring wheels.

Another idea is for them to be kind of like the corsairs that throw that explosive thing. They had booze and fire why not combine the two. This would be more true to their raiding nature as they could make quick attacks.

Those are my ideas what do some of you think about Rohan Siege?

#2 khamulrulz

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 07:20 AM

i was thinking that siege weapons could be the following:

yeoman stone-throwers: quite weak siege, but move reasonably and cheap. based off guys throwing rocks at helm's deep. could be reskinned and scaled down mountain giants.

horse ram: basically a ram drawn by horses with a horse head

and i would like the idea of having an ent hero from the fortress, as well as the ability to get treebeard with the fortress monument (similar to gwaihir or drogoth)
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#3 Gfire

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 06:02 PM

A think an ent and/or huorn summon, as well. It'd really be nice to have Treebeard with both merry and pippin, though. If merry goes to Gondor and pippin goes to Rohan, this wouldn't really work out.
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#4 khamulrulz

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 10:00 PM

well merry would still be able to mount him... and yes there is a tier 4 wrath of the ents power in my spellbook suggestion.
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#5 isledebananas

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 03:04 AM

I really think Rohan should have their own type of siege. Ents being with Elves makes the most sense. The only reason people associate Ents with Rohan is because of them both being against Isengard. However we have to realize that Ents were way on the other side of Rohan's territory the very edge of it in fact if that even falls under their territory. Fangorn clearly falls closer to the Elven kingdoms and Treebeard has acquaintances amongst the elves.

Besides I think siege should be a bit weaker for Rohan since its not their forte. Giving them Ents is ridiculous since Ents are so damn strong it would change their play style too much imo.

#6 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 04:22 AM

But the Ents weren't "buddy buddy" with the Elves either. But then again, the Ents technically were neutral and didn't bother with anyone. But in my firm belief, Rohan to me is akin to Ents to a degree. And besides, the elves already have almost an ENTIRE FACTION of the strongest people IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Let them have bad siege. They need SOME kind of weakness. To balance out Rohan, just make the Ent's THAT EXPENSIVE.
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#7 isledebananas

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 06:18 AM

The problem with the Ents is that they change Rohan's playing style. Basically when I think of the awesomeness of Rohan is the little battle right outside Fangorn where the Rohirrim with Eomer charge in and quickly decimate the enemy. They are a cavalry kind of culture they need the speed and quick strikes. Basically they are good at constant harassment to slowly weaken the enemy.

Your right about the elves having the really strong heroes though. But their strong archers complement the ents siege style well. The ents blast away from range and anyone who gets close is taken out by the strong archers. But your right ents themselves are too strong they should be limited to a summon. This might be something to discuss about the elves weakening their siege which makes sense.

Rohan infantry aren't as strong their main strength is that solid cavalry. Raiding the enemy base is easy when you have the strongest main cavalry in the game. I mean while they aren't better pure stats wise they are the best at getting the job done imo. They can't really keep those ents from getting taken out by enemy archers and if you try to trample them they will just have pikes in the way. It also cramps their style they lose their quick speed which is one of their greatest strengths.

Now I know that speed isn't the name of the game when it comes to siege. However, a faster siege would make Rohan really unique playing wise and far more difficult to counter. They are based after Vikings and Mongols who are known for their raiding capabilities. Ranged Rohirrim should be separate from the melee ones much like in the previous version. However the ranged version should have either an ability or toggle to fire bomb thing like the corsairs. Perhaps also as Khamulrulz stated a horse drawn ram. It would possess significantly greater speed than the other rams but not as fast as actual cavalry and be good at deflecting arrows.

#8 khamulrulz

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 07:50 AM

the whole ent issue comes down to this: elves "woke" ents up, and taught them the ways of the world, so ents are with the elven faction, and can be recruited from the ent moot. however, they fought against isengard with the rohirrim at helm's deep at at isengard. when orcs tried to invade the wold from the north, ents stopped the invasion which would almost certainly have devastated rohan, with most of the rohirrim away at war. also, when treebeard set up the treegarth of orthanc, he was on good relations with eomer's rohirrim. this is why i suggest that rohan get ONE ent as a hero, with treebeard as a monument hero. this makes ents slightly different for the rohan faction

Edited by khamulrulz, 23 November 2009 - 07:56 AM.

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#9 mike_

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 03:33 PM

Heh...yes, the Rohirrim are based off of both the Mongol and Viking cultures. So why shouldn't they do what both those peoples did in times of fortress-war, and hire out some engineers from more technologically advanced countries? In history the Mongols raised siege trains of Chinese and Muslim siege-engineers, and the Vikings sought out defectors from their enemies to do that work for them. I suggest that the Rohirrim could have a high-tier summon for some Gondorian trebuchet, as well as the Ent Summon. This should provide enough 'beef' for their siege wing of the army.

#10 isledebananas

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 06:44 PM

The ent summon makes sense because of what happened in the movies. Your right about Rohan using technology or engineers from other civilizations though. However, I still think they should have a somewhat unique siege to fit their own style of attack. They have allies amongst Gondor so they could probably fix something up that suits Rohan which won't probably be as strong as Gondor since they are more about speed more so than a prolonged true siege. I remembered in BFME 1 when they had ents when they came out it totally changed Rohan's playing style and their cavalry would just stand there not moving just shooting at things that came close to the ents. It just felt un-Rohirric(lol sorry) for them to be so stationary.

#11 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 09:47 PM

I remembered in BFME 1 when they had ents when they came out it totally changed Rohan's playing style and their cavalry would just stand there not moving just shooting at things that came close to the ents. It just felt un-Rohirric(lol sorry) for them to be so stationary.

I find that offensive. I am a Rohan player in BFME1. The Ents were VERY EXPENSIVE TO GET. The whole "bombarding" thing was just the benefit of having spent a lot of time and money for 4 Ents and 1 Treebeard. Let alone just an Entmoot. With that money, you could get at least 3-5 fully upgraded Rohirrim.
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#12 isledebananas

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 01:54 AM

Yes they were but after a certain point it was very easy to keep pumping them out. They were just a beefier version of the other factions siege. Not to mention that I rarely ran into any orcs that had fire arrows ready to be used on my ents. However, if I was ever having to face ents it was quite easy to defeat them unless I was Mordor since they have poor archers. Unless Rohan is really sneaky their ent attacks are pretty easy to get rid of. Probably more so in S.E.E. considering the various units they have now for each faction. Rohan is built for speed not for a protracted siege since they can't protect the ents as well as other factions with more archers.

This is the problem with Rohan is the AI. How will they handle ents? If the AI is good its difficult to effectively use ents to get anything done more so cause they are expensive not to mention slow. If they have archers with fire arrows and some pikemen those ents are going down. Its even worse if they have heroes like Saruman or Nazgul on Felbeasts. If they use ents against you its also not very well done since Rohan units are weak at taking damage a traditional siege rarely works well with them. It could work if you have a constant stream of ents which is really tough seeing as how their expensive and take time getting towards the enemy base. While the AI is moving the ents is a great time to take them out with archers.

#13 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:03 AM

2 words: FIRE ARROWS.

And Ent's aren't supposed to take ENTIRE ARMIES out on their own.
They either need protection by troops or be in a huge group of Ents.
They would be like every other siege: Hard to take down when protected, but easily killed off if unprotected.
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#14 isledebananas

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 04:52 AM

No my criticism is that the AI was never really good at properly utilizing the ents. The Rohan cavalry is easier to counter than the other armies more powerful units and the infantry is not really that strong. This makes it difficult for Rohan to mount a proper siege even with ents. Also while they are stronger they go down pretty quick as you said to fire arrows. Basically their cost and actual effectiveness when used by the AI isn't very good. Basically Rohan(AI) would need a far larger army than other factions to properly lay siege to an area. I don't know how the AI coding will be for the 4.7, but if I recall the AI didn't do too good at job with protecting their siege. With the cost and CP count of the ents it would be really hard for Rohan AI and it won't offset by the damage and hp of the ents. If the siege is cheap they can kind of spam it and it will be effective, yet if its expensive it won't really work.

Giving Rohan faster yet weaker siege units would really boost their effectiveness. One of the main problems I have is when the AI quickly manages to slip some siege by the fighting armies. Though I am able to pull away troops sometimes I can't in time because enemy units are good at occupying my troops. This results in them being able to take down a building or two. Rohan however is one of the armies that has clear set counters to their more powerful units making them less effective at clearing out units or taking up their time for too long. It doesn't help that ents are somewhat slower to attack either meaning the troops go down fast and then the ents before they can give out too much punishment. If they had faster units they can easily slip in some stuff and take out buildings or even use more hit and run tactics.

But personally I just don't like ents being with Rohan or any faction for that matter beyond a summon. They are best utilized as such if they are summoned pretty close to a base to take them by surprise. Kind of like what actually happened at Isengard. If you know the ents are coming you just pump out archers upgrade with fire and let them have it.

#15 Arthadan

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 07:37 AM

I agree with isledebananas, but for different reasons. I understand balance is important in a game, but I'd rather prefer a game 100% true to the lore (or at least as true as the films) than a perfectly balanced one with lesser respect to the lore.

Ents were neutral and they cared only about their own forest of Fangorn. They marched against Isengard in their own and they arrived at the end of the Battle of Pelennor to finish crushing the Orcs. But Rohan had no alliance with them, no power to summon them and no way to make them fight any battle. The Pelennor? Go yourself, horse-boy. The Black Gate? Way too far from my forest homeland.

So, the best way to have them in game would be as a summon for Rohan (maybe Treebeard and four Ents). Regarding Rohan siege, a roofed battering ram would be the most appropiate (resistance to fire, since furs covering the roof were wet to prevent fire and a bit longer than other factions rams to make it more powerful).

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Edited by Arthadan, 24 November 2009 - 07:40 AM.

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#16 Arveanor

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 09:14 PM

What about a light catapult drawn by a pair of horses? I suppose the riders of the horses could operate the catapult, or maybe even have a guy riding on the catapult, IDK, but I think incorporating horses in it would make it feel like rohan and make it faster.


And I know this might be a little bit off topic, but how can you compare Rohan to the vikings? I mean, the vikings were sea-raiders... Rohan is landlocked. There may be some other similarities but... this doesn't seem like a good fit...

#17 isledebananas

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:31 AM

Rohan culture minus the sea stuff is mostly Viking. The Vikings used horses too to attack their fast and help with their type of quick attack style. Now they aren't a culture based around horses like Rohan. If you have read Beowulf you know Rohan is slightly modeled after the descriptions of the Danes mentioned there. Rohan also may have been based around J.R.R. Tolkien's personal experience in the army where he actually was a member of the cavalry when they still used horses.

Personally I think a ram like the second picture shown by Arthadan yet pulled by horses would be best. It would be their strongest siege meaning the one capable of dealing the most damage quickly. Most if not all other races strongest siege is some long ranged like catapult. I personally think making Rohan siege into more traditional ruins their style since they would go from a very mobile culture to one that stands around protecting those long ranged siege. Now Isengard has a ram but its pretty useless since it can be taken out easily. Rohan ram would not only have more hp but also more resistant to arrow fire and most importantly the fastest siege engine in the game. I think making it slightly faster than foot soldiers would be best maybe around the speed of Uruk scouts. When attacking head on that speed is a big bonus since it helps get away from enemies and get into place to crush buildings faster.

#18 drogoth232

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:48 AM

I dont think I remember that well but in the Extended Version of ROTK Peter said that they were based of Saxons. (Anglo-Saxons) BUt I personally think Rohan Riders with throwing torches, with a circle and shoot formation (like M2TW and M2TW Kingdoms).
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#19 isledebananas

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 01:18 AM

Yeah that would be their initial method of siege just add that to either of the two types of Rohirrim as a toggle or to both of them. However, that would be really tough for hit and run attacks as you couldn't effectively take down buildings in enough time. They need some sort of siege engine too to become more effective.

#20 Damrod

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 07:54 PM

Just somewhat of an observation, Rohirim specialize in fast units, since their culture is based on farmers and horsemen. In light of that, I think it would be great if the Rohirim were to use a ram, and a balista. It makes sense to me that they would use 'light' siege equipment, lobbing wooden spikes instead of boulders, simply because it would be impossible for a catapult laden with stone shot to keep up with a rohirim horse army. Just a thought, but I think it would be cool to see a good guy balista.




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