505 replies to this topic

[Vortigern]

I'm noticing a horrifying trend here. You unfortunate four have been indoctrinated with Christian dogma, having never been exposed to the opinions of the wider world!

Seriously, though, I never understood homeschooling. Surely it is just a way of controlling everything your children grow up knowing and spending lots of money on something you can get for free? Hey, you four, are your parents all deeply controlling people? Do they suffer from anxiety attacks whenever they don't know exactly where you are? Do you get grounded for breaking your curfew of 5p.m. at weekends? Do I have a wildly prejudiced and uninformed view of homeschooled children? Are you Lindsay Lohan from Mean Girls? Are you!?

[MirkwoodArcher]

Homeschooling is not a control thing; it's a way for parents to teach their kids without their having to be subjected to all the filth that is in school. Also, homeschooling helps kids who are smart get ahead instead of being stuck in a class that's too easy for them and that's making them go nuts. Homeschooling helps kids like Jeth and me pursue further education at an early age.

Parents who care about their kids take them out of school because they don't want them to be subjected to the bad things that are out there before their kids have a chance to have a firm foundation. And, yes, quite a few homeschoolers are Christian; that is a big factor for some parents who want their kids to stay away from bad influences.

And Christianity is not a bad thing. Parents teach their kids things that have their views in it, but isn't that what happens in public school? Teachers influence their students' beliefs, not always for the good. Public schooled kids get "indoctrinated" with certain views just like homeschooled kids do.

Sure, you may not have to pay to have your kid in public school, but some parents would rather continue to pay taxes to schools that their kids are not attending because they want the best for them. They want their kids to do excel and to have a firm belief so they don't get blown over by all the philosophies in the world. And the results that come from it aren't all bad. In fact, they're very good.

Would any of my homeschooled friends like to add to what I've said?

Edited by MirkwoodArcher, 17 December 2009 - 12:31 AM.

[Vortigern]

Mirk, that was very neat and well-explained, although I have a bone to pick with you on one point: bad influences are what make us people! Nobody's perfect, and nobody ever will be. You know what happened when people tried to make themselves perfect? Brave New World. And, like, a billion other sci-fi books. If you never have any bad influences you just have to learn about the 'bad' things yourself, and then you'll probably do them wrong and injure yourself. You simply cannot remain shielded your entire life.

And you'll notice you neglected to address my final question. ARE YOU LINDSAY LOHAN!?

[MirkwoodArcher]

Yes, bad influences teach us and help us learn what to look out for, but we need to have a firm foundation before we brave it. If we don't have a firm foundation, there will be a much greater chance of us falling into holes because we don't have something good to hold on to that tells us what's right. And we aren't shielded our entire lives---we end up having to go out in the world. We are just shielded for that short time when we are still growing up and are learning more about the world, but are not completely in it.

I don't know what you mean by your question.

Edited by MirkwoodArcher, 17 December 2009 - 12:44 AM.

[Mathijs]

Homeschooling is not a control thing; it's a way for parents to teach their kids without their having to be subjected to all the filth that is in school. Also, homeschooling helps kids who are smart get ahead instead of being stuck in a class that's too easy for them and that's making them go nuts. Homeschooling helps kids like Jeth and me pursue further education at an early age.

Don't know about America, but over here I was able to get more courses and assignments in order to keep me interested.

Parents who care about their kids take them out of school because they don't want them to be subjected to the bad things that are out there before their kids have a chance to have a firm foundation. And, yes, quite a few homeschoolers are Christian; that is a big factor for some parents who want their kids to stay away from bad influences.

I like how you word what is basically what Vortigern said in a ''positive'' way. A firm foundation? More like enough indoctrination to make sure they never think outside the Iron Box that is religion. How is that not control? Also, are you saying that parents who send their children to normal schools don't care about their kids? Really? Has it ever occured to you that maybe kids nééd to be in school, around peers, getting pushed around and pushing back, in order to properly develop social skills and an open mind in order to adapt to different situations that will occur in their adult lives? No? I didn't think so!

And Christianity is not a bad thing. Parents teach their kids things that have their views in it, but isn't that what happens in public school? Teachers influence their students' beliefs, not always for the good. Public schooled kids get "indoctrinated" with certain views just like homeschooled kids do.

Christianity, in my brutal and honest opinion, is one of the most horrible things on this terrible planet. It is completely and utterly unnatural to, for example, refuse to have sex before marriage. Human beings are social, sexual creatures, and the restrictions that are put on them by Christianity are just plain wrong. It goes heavily against the natural development of human behaviour.

Oh, and the difference between getting indoctrinated at home by your parents and getting indoctrinated at school is that there is a possibility of different views. Different teachers teach different things. Or did you mean that a subject like science is indoctrinating kids ''becuz it cant be true, a god did it''? Please, not the latter. Please. For my sanity and yours. I agree that public schools indoctrinate children by the way, they really, really do and I resent them for it, but two wrongs doesn't make a right and it still leaves the social development issue.

Sure, you may not have to pay to have your kid in public school, but some parents would rather continue to pay taxes to schools that their kids are not attending because they want the best for them. They want their kids to do excel and to have a firm belief so they don't get blown over by all the philosophies in the world. And the results that come from it aren't all bad. In fact, they're very good.

Would any of my homeschooled friends like to add to what I've said?

Once again you describe in rose-tinted goggles what is basically just closing the mind of children and utterly destroying their individuality and social development. Jesus Christ indeed, it is too late for you.

Would any other of you rational assholes (Vort, Allathar) like to add something to what I've boldly stated?

Edited by Matias, 17 December 2009 - 01:00 AM.

[MirkwoodArcher]

All I have to say to your comments is that that is one reason why you think it is so terrible is because you are totally against the good morals that Christianity teaches. So, therefore you aren't for parents wanting their kids to be safe from bad influences. You can choose not to believe if you'd like, but it's not right to bring other people down for believing.

And I am getting so sick of the social aspect that everyone keeps bringing up. Is it good to learn social skills of snubbing people who you don't think are cool, to hang out with people who want to bring you down, and to be around all the dumb dramas that go on? I could make a bet that if you talked to someone at work or someone you meet for the first time that was homeschooled, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Homeschoolers are able to develop the social skills they need to be out in the world and get along with others. If they didn't, then there would be proof to show it.

And I'm not saying that parents who send their kids to public school don't care. Most parents are just doing what they believe is the right thing. And most parents can't commit to teaching their kids at home (because of work and other demands), so they send their kids to school. It doesn't mean that they love them less.

Edited by MirkwoodArcher, 17 December 2009 - 01:03 AM.

[Devon]

Parents who care about their kids take them out of school because they don't want them to be subjected to the bad things that are out there before their kids have a chance to have a firm foundation.

So my parents don't care about me? I'd beg to differ.


As for your comment on social skills, I've known quite a few homeschoolers, and for the most part they are rather shy and not as confident. They do adjust within a year or so at public school however. Take that as you will.


Public school is honestly not nearly as bad as you're making it out. Yes, there's swearing, and yeah, sometimes there can be bullying. But really? You don't have to put up with that bullshit any longer than you want to. Drama is likewise easy to avoid, if you really want to.

Edited by Yoda, 17 December 2009 - 01:15 AM.

[Mathijs]

All I have to say to your comments is that that is one reason why you think it is so terrible is because you are totally against the good morals that Christianity teaches. So, therefore you aren't for parents wanting their kids to be safe from bad influences. You can choose not to believe if you'd like, but it's not right to bring other people down for believing.

There is no such thing as good or bad morals, that's the whole point. Morals are relative, but Christians cannot get that through their thick skulls. Thou shalt not kill my ass, what if the poor man has been suffering from incurable illness for years? Can his doctor not, according to his wish, put him out of his misery? A 13 year old girl gets pregnant, risking her health and the health of the baby. Can she not have it aborted before it has developed into something human? NO! Because we cannot kill! That is God's responsibility! Yet it is perfectly FINE, according to most Christians throughout history, to slaughter the shit out of people who disagree. Morality is relative, thus any moral code that is not flexible cannot be moral. What Christians need to understand is that in real life, as in, the world outside their fairytales, is not that simple.

And I am getting so sick of the social aspect that everyone keeps bringing up. Is it good to learn social skills of snubbing people who you don't think are cool, to hang out with people who want to bring you down, and to be around all the dumb dramas that go on? I could make a bet that if you talked to someone at work or someone you meet for the first time that was homeschooled, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Homeschoolers are able to develop the social skills they need to be out in the world and get along with others. If they didn't, then there would be proof to show it.

See, your view of public schools is skewed thanks to your indoctrination. I have met my best friends through high school, I have experienced some of the best times of my life because of that. Just because there is a lot of bullshit going on EVERYWHERE where lots of people are stuck, doesn't mean you cannot personally benefit from it.

[MirkwoodArcher]

What this comes down to is what parents feel is best for their kids. If you look at my previous post, you'll see what I said about public school and caring.

Homeschooled kids don't have the interaction of being in school with many other kids everyday, but they are still able to communicate. In fact, they are able to communicate with adults very well, which is good as they will be spending the rest of their lives as adults. Some are shy, yes, but it also depends on the person. Some people are naturally more shy than others, including public schooled kids.

This is my opinion based on what I've seen about kids: Kids in public school don't care about adults and usually don't treat them with much respect or ignore them. They prefer to hang out with their "cool" friends.

Not all your friends you meet in high school will keep in contact with you throughout life. As life goes on, you meet new people in college and such who you share interests with. It is a MUCH different atmosphere after high school---kids change and go their separate ways. They meet new people and mature more. I have to say that most people don't keep in touch with their best high school friends today because they have lost touch with each other or are pursuing different things.

And one more thing: You say that my view is skewed, but so is yours. I've been taught things that I believe in and so have you. You have a strong belief that Christianity is bad for people, which is different than my view on it.

Edited by MirkwoodArcher, 17 December 2009 - 01:27 AM.

[Mathijs]

Yeah, see, I have not been taught anything except that I should go out and decide for myself what my morals should be, and what kind of philosophy I would subscribe to, if I could call it that.. Surprising, huh? My worldview is something that I came up with all by myself.

Oh, and once again, two wrongs don't make a right. I know I am a mentally unstable, foul-mouthed bastard, but that doesn't make it alright for you to consider Christianity in any way moral. Also, I like how you completely ignored my bit about morality.

Is it because I AM RIGHT?

Edited by Matias, 17 December 2009 - 01:31 AM.

[MirkwoodArcher]

Yeah, see, I have not been taught anything except that I should go out and decide for myself what my morals should be, and what kind of philosophy I would subscribe to, if I could call it that.. Surprising, huh? My worldview is something that I came up with all by myself.

And that's what you believe in. Other people have the choice to accept religion and make their own choices too. People who believe in something base their decisions on it.

[Mathijs]

Yes they do, and I utterly resent and loathe them for being the primitive morons they are. It angers me to no end that people are really stupid enough to base their life choices on an ancient book, then consider it right and just to leave their kids NO CHOICE in what they choose to believe when they're grown up and capable of properly registering the world around them. A child is not a Christian, a child is a child and it should not be labeled as anything until it is able to think for himself. Perpetuating your false god in such a manner is just a sign of weakness. If your faith was so true and real, wouldn't grown men and women convert by the masses? If it makes so much sense, I mean. It doesn't, you see. It's all bollocks and you're going to rot in the ground when you're dead. Imagine there is no heaven, it's easy if you try.

And you ignored the morality bit again.

Edited by Matias, 17 December 2009 - 01:42 AM.

[MirkwoodArcher]

Yeah, see, I have not been taught anything except that I should go out and decide for myself what my morals should be, and what kind of philosophy I would subscribe to, if I could call it that.. Surprising, huh? My worldview is something that I came up with all by myself.

Oh, and once again, two wrongs don't make a right. I know I am a mentally unstable, foul-mouthed bastard, but that doesn't make it alright for you to consider Christianity in any way moral. Also, I like how you completely ignored my bit about morality.

Is it because I AM RIGHT?

I have a right just as much as you do to believe what I want. You have no right to tell people what you believe and then say that they are wrong to have their own beliefs.

You think that immorality is just fine. I don't think that. There are studies that show that immorality leads to bad things. Christianity is not restricting, it's a protection that keeps us safe from bad situations, like those. Can you tell me that unmarried people with children live good lives?

[MirkwoodArcher]

Yes they do, and I utterly resent and loathe them for being the primitive morons they are. It angers me to no end that people are really stupid enough to base their life choices on an ancient book.

And you ignored the morality bit again.

And again, you make your choices and other make theirs. If you can't handle the fact that someone wants to believe in the Bible, then that's too bad.

[MirkwoodArcher]

I'd rather not discuss it anymore. This has gone much farther than homeschooling and I think this should stop.

[Mathijs]

You have no idea what the hell I'm on about, do you? You really haven't the slightest clue.

I have a right just as much as you do to believe what I want. You have no right to tell people what you believe and then say that they are wrong to have their own beliefs.

Yes, I do in fact have that right. I don't see why not. Perhaps because it offends you? Get over it.

You think that immorality is just fine. I don't think that. There are studies that show that immorality leads to bad things. Christianity is not restricting, it's a protection that keeps us safe from bad situations, like those. Can you tell me that unmarried people with children live good lives?

I certainly do not think immorality is just fine, why else would I label Christian morality as such? See, I talk about morality in a relative sense, different from what you're used to, and your first response is BEEP BEEP IMMORAL, BAD, SHUT DOWN ALL BRAIN ACTIVITY AND CITE THE BIBLE. And yes, I can in fact believe that unmarried people with kids can lead good lives, why the fuck not? My parents weren't married when they had me, because they just hadn't gotten to that point yet. You're saying my parents can't lead good lives because your god disagrees with them fucking and spawning me?

My god.

Oh, and can someone go ahead and warn me already? Somebody stop me, I am a criminal.

Edited by Matias, 17 December 2009 - 01:54 AM.

[Vortigern]

Matias, I highly doubt anyone will ever warn you. It's one of the perks of being a constant asshole to the world; we've come to accept it and even expect it from you.

On a related note, I found out a couple of years ago that my parents never intended to get married and only did so they could qualify for married quarters when my dad was in the military. If couples in committed relationships were afforded the same courtesies as married couples my parents would never have got married and my life would be no different in any way.

I have to agree with Matias on the morality issue. Everything is relative. And I'm curious, at what point do Christians decide a part of the Bible no longer applies? I shall cite as my example here Leviticus 19:19, my favourite Biblical message: "Thou shalt not wear clothing woven of two different cloths." When did that stop being a sin? If you've disregarded that part of your moral code, when will you begin to discard the rest? When will Christianity get to the point that "Thou shalt not murder" has been declared obsolete?

By the way, guys, I think it's awesome the way this discussion developed. Perhaps somebody should split it off into a new topic? (I would, but I'm going to sleep now. It's, like, 3a.m. over here.)

[Jeth Calark]

I have a reply all worked up (or at least, the beginnings of one), but at the risk of further derailing the thread into the deepest marches of the Off-Topic Desert, I'll refrain until someone takes this whole discussion and moves it out to its proper place in a thread of its own.

[Lauri]

Homeschooling looks to be revolving around Christians, so it doesn't need a topic of it's own

I respect Christians just as I respect every other religious and non-religious man, woman or child. I think that Christianity has good values that are important in a society, as do the others, and they all of course have things that are just wrong, and even sick sometimes
Also, first hand experience is better than off hand.. You'll be a much better driver if you acctually drive, rather than read a book about it.. alas, you'll be able to make it through life better if you live it and experience it. If you're just told how you're going to have to live it and what to watch out for, well...
Goes for bad influence too.. You'll likely notice sometime that you're acctually being influence in a bad way.. Then it's you call to eiter reject or claim it.. Having been homeschooled won't help you reject it, no don't think so. It's better to be a rebel when your a teenager, than an adult..

Now, responses to some of the things that's been said, sorry if I'm direct, but you've already been saved from bad influence by your parents, so;

Parents who care about their kids take them out of school because they don't want them to be subjected to the bad things that are out there before their kids have a chance to have a firm foundation.

I go to public shools, so; fuck you, simple as

And, yes, quite a few homeschoolers are Christian; that is a big factor for some parents who want their kids to stay away from bad influences.

If they keep their children locked away from bad influence in childhood, how'd you think they'd fuck up when released? Instead of a gradual way of growing up, learning how the society works, what's right and what's wrong, you throw them straight into hell, because well, the real world isn't exactly paradise.

I have a right just as much as you do to believe what I want. You have no right to tell people what you believe and then say that they are wrong to have their own beliefs.

Err, freedom of speech is pretty widespread nowadays.. Still, there's no point arguing back and forth about who's right, because neither of you are likely to change opinion. When your both 40 years old, some things will probably change, still... there's no hurry

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Ah it's been a while since this old debate has popped up

I would be in favour of homeschooling my children,truth be told I'm not a big fan of my State's education system these days,or back when i was in school either.
I would encourage my Children to question everything even me and to never accept things as they are.
Basically a scientific approach to life.
Unfortunately homeschooling was not an option for me growing up as my parents are idiots (they really are).

I believe a good education will make life so much easier in the long run you get it where you can.

As for the whole Atheism/Agnostic vs Christianity/other Jesus friends debate I am of course an Atheist.
I believe that the positive morals that the Bible,Koran etc teach are basic common sense.
Not murdering is an obvious one and I don't think most people have to be told not to do it.

I think there will come a time in human history where dogma becomes obsolete and people can war and debate about what they are really debating about Land,Sex and Politics.