505 replies to this topic

[mike_]

To quote a man, "I believe that anyone who is selflessly devout to one sole religion does not comprehend the vastness that is God."

Sums up my beliefs, kthx

[MirkwoodArcher]

I didn't mean to offend anyone by saying what I did about public school. Here's a better explanation:

For those who are able to homeschool, it's a good thing. It's not for everyone and some kids do better in a public school than others. It doesn't mean that parents love their kids less.

Basically people have to do what works for them.

[Nertea]

So, if a key part of Christian lore is resisting temptation (in all its forms), how is removing access to temptation useful in passing the inevitable "test of faith"?

[MirkwoodArcher]

A person can't be shielded from temptation all his life. When the time comes, all kids have to go out and live in the world. Kids will face their share of temptations as they venture out into the world. The hope is that by parents and others being able to teach them good values while the kids aren't surrounded by bad influences, the kids will be able to go out into the world and "stand their ground."

It's like a plant: If a person brings a small plant outdoors (in the cold) before it is strong enough, it will die. If one waits and brings the plant out after it has grown and gotten stronger, it will be able to survive the weather.

Edited by MirkwoodArcher, 17 December 2009 - 06:26 PM.

[Puppeteer]

Homeschooling is not a control thing; it's a way for parents to teach their kids without their having to be subjected to all the filth that is in school.

It prevents you from seeing the real world! The world is defined by its merits AND its faults.

Also, homeschooling helps kids who are smart get ahead instead of being stuck in a class that's too easy for them and that's making them go nuts. Homeschooling helps kids like Jeth and me pursue further education at an early age.

Hardly. You're generalising - there are many provisions in the UK to advance smart pupils, whilst still maintaining that no child is left behind.

Parents teach their kids things that have their views in it, but isn't that what happens in public school? Teachers influence their students' beliefs, not always for the good.

Not only do we have multiple sources in school, but we also a have a large variance in views in school. My teachers vary drastically, religiously and politically. Actually, as an example my school seems to be predominantly Tory. You know me...

This is my opinion based on what I've seen about kids: Kids in public school don't care about adults and usually don't treat them with much respect or ignore them. They prefer to hang out with their "cool" friends.

You are so dismissive, generalising and frankly rude. I find your impertinence offensive and betrays a certain ineptness. You've been indoctrinated that homeschooling is more beneficial than normal education.

I have to say that most people don't keep in touch with their best high school friends today because they have lost touch with each other or are pursuing different things.

As a child, how on earth would you know that? Truth is, you don't. Most of my parents' friends were in the same secondary school, and the rest in university.

You think that immorality is just fine. I don't think that. There are studies that show that immorality leads to bad things.

You pious bigot.

Christianity is not restricting, it's a protection that keeps us safe from bad situations, like those. Can you tell me that unmarried people with children live good lives?

Christianity restricts you from seeing what's real. How dare you accuse unmarried parents of having bad lives? The impudence!

good values

Wrong. They are but mere values. Have you not learnt that their is no sense of good?

It's like a plant: If a person brings a small plant outdoors, in the cold, before it is strong enough, it will die. If one waits and brings the plant out after it has grown and gotten stronger, it will be able to survive the weather.

EXCEPT the rest of us are fine! You seem to forget that everyone else survives pretty well, and I'd argue survives better, in public schools. Your analogy is based on a false assumption. It's best to be sent out in to the REAL world sooner, rather than later.

[Mathijs]

He probably knows the rest is doing fine, but he also knows that we are all going to burn in hell.

[Nertea]

There are studies that show that immorality leads to bad things.

*waves science degree* Even if it's just social science, I fucking hate these claims. If there are peer-reviewed studies, point me to them, and I will read them, then perhaps increase my respect for you slightly.

It's like a plant: If a person brings a small plant outdoors (in the cold) before it is strong enough, it will die. If one waits and brings the plant out after it has grown and gotten stronger, it will be able to survive the weather.

AWFUL comparison. If you bring a plant that doesn't belong in that environment outside before it's strong enough, then it will die. This is how nature works, things evolve to fill niches (yes, I do realize that talking to a hardcore Christian about evolution is risky). You are discussing society, which does not have the same physiological consequences. For example, if I took a baby out into the cold before it was strong enough, yes, it will die. This is however how the human body works (durr water expands at low temperatures durr)! If I send the baby to a daycare centre instead of keeping it at home, it won't die. Granted, it might eat something odd while not being directly supervised, but at least most daycares lack the horrible perils of christian homes. Really, those crosses around necks? Strangulation threat! Eating the cross would be even worse, and don't even talk to me about those rosary beads.

This is my opinion based on what I've seen about kids: Kids in public school don't care about adults and usually don't treat them with much respect or ignore them. They prefer to hang out with their "cool" friends.

False. Even without pulling the "I had a decent respect for my elders in public school" card, it is evident that a good portion of kids in school are in awe and respect of many celebrities, who are adults... Your claim should be changed to "don't respect the RIGHT adults". This I agree with to a limited extent, because you shouldn't really be paying silver screen names that much respect, but generalizing your parents or priests or those with 'good' morals as being the ultimate in role models is just stupid. Especially priests.

Christianity is not restricting, it's a protection that keeps us safe from bad situations, like those. Can you tell me that unmarried people with children live good lives?

The girl who works in my lab with me would disagree.

Edited by Nertea, 17 December 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[Allathar]

I don't have much to say other than what's been said by the others already, so let me just phrase my thoughts by the one thing that you don't (and won't, and unfortunately enough probably never will) understand: choice.

You keep going on about how your parents protect you from bad influences, so you can choose the right thing (in your case, Christianity). You won't see, however, that it isn't your choice at all, but rather your parents choosing for you what's best for you, and spooning it in until high school. Aka brainwashing and indoctrinating. By being protected from 'bad influences', you never encountered any different-thinking people in early age, thus missing an important part of growing up: self-reflection, and learning to critically analyze everything and not take things for granted just because your parents told you so.

Sure, these 'bad influences' and different thinking people may be bad and wrong, but as long as you don't meet those people and influences, how can you choose them? Who is to say, besides your parents, that those bad influences aren't bad at all, but rather a very nifty tool for learning new things?

I think it's perfectly fine being a Christian, as long as you're open minded and have chosen that decision for YOURSELF, rather than simply accepting your parents choice as the best. And the only way to make decisions for yourself is, indeed, by encountering those 'bad influences'.

To use a metaphor, it's like a multiple-choice question: the right answer may be C, and your parents tell you that the right answer is C, so you choose C. But the point of the question is not to pick the right answer, it's picking the best answer and learning something. The only way to learn something from it is by examining the other answers, and make your decision of the best answer all by yourself. Sure, you might still go for option C and might argue that's the same result as simply accepting your parents choice. But then you're completely missing the point.

[Gfire]

When I was younger, I did sort of just believe because of my parents. I didn't, and still really don't, have something to compare it to. But it's far to real to me to drastically change my beliefs. I don't think you can understand if you've never experienced it for yourself.

As far as homeschooling goes, I suppose it depends on many factors. As with any educational option, what's best depends on the student and teacher. For me, I think the public school system we have here would drag me down. But I'm also incredibly blessed and have a local recourse center for homecshoolers, so I can be around other students to some extent and learn a lot of things I wouldn't be able to otherwise. So for me, definitely great to homeschool.

Aren't we all brainwashed? I don't see how it's any different in homeschooling.

[Vortigern]

With homeschooling you are only exposed to one source of influence. At a public school there are hundreds of conflicting opinions and you pick your favourite. That's the big difference.

[Allathar]

Oh, Gfire, I've got a pretty good understanding of it, really. I was raised moderately Christian (my mom believes, my father doesn't give a shit really), and went to a pretty orthodox Christian lower school (it was the one nearest by and a pretty good one too, too bad about the Christian part though). Fortunately though, I was blessed with an intelligence above average and a pretty critical mind, so by rationally analyzing my 'believes' I pretty soon came to the conclusion that there probably isn't a god, and if there is one, we humans sure as hell can't understand him.

One thing that helped me take the step from Christian to atheist was the following reasoning: if I was born in Iraq instead of the Netherlands, and my parents were devout Muslims, would I be one too? Chances are you might answer that question with 'yes', if not, you're hopeless.

Now, let's say you were raised in Iraq and were a Muslim, and you were asking the question: if I were raised in the Netherlands (or USA, or wherever), and my parents were Christian, would I be one too?

[Lauri]

For those who are able to homeschool, it's a good thing.

Not neccesarily... I know I'd hate to be homeschooled.. I might not like going to school and waking up early, but I know I'll be better off going to school. And I would never have trusted my parents to have them knowledge and stuff to acctually learn me as much as I learn from a public school, and that goes for you to, I believe.. I seriously doubt you learn just as much as us pulic-schoolers.. Of course, you're probably not learning the theory of evolution and stuff like that, but still
Also, the only reason I love about school, is that I meet my friends there... I'd get insane to just listen to my mom all day long learning me stuff... Personal connection with your teacher is not looked up upon as far as I know.. as in, relative..
Heh, I can acctually visualize it... "Mom, when do I learn maths? Oh no dear, math is for publics.. you're a Christian, you don't need that, you only need your faith" No offence meant

Basically people have to do what works for them.

Well, that's a problem right there... People, are you referring to you or your parents? Who made the call of homeschooling?
What if it's working best that way for them, to school you, but not for you? You'd get a conflict, and that's not ideal.
What if you want to be homeschooled, but that's not working out for your parents? Would you go to a public school?
Real life, people can't always do what really works for them... The world ain't a place where everyone does what works for them

I have to say, you appear as a guy who will always say "Mom and dad is right"... Have you ever responded in a negative way to them? Since you respect adults and that..?

[Gfire]

@Allathar: By what you've said you've proved to me you haven't experienced it. I still don't expect you to understand.

[Mathijs]

The ultimate religious response: ''You don't understand.''

Allathar, are you familiar with Hans Teeuwen's sketch about religion? ''Kan je niet uitleggen... Gristus... het is een... gevoel!''

[Allathar]

@Allathar: By what you've said you've proved to me you haven't experienced it. I still don't expect you to understand.

I have. Trust me on that. Either way, whether I have it or not doesn't change anything for you, does it? Your choice really. All I ask is an open mind, and that you ask yourself what you really know instead of think to know, and what you've been told.

@ Matias: inderdaad ja.... Het feit dat ze zo graag willen geloven en daardoor God 'voelen' en daardoor geloven etc. Vicieuze cirkel, of, moet ik zeggen, neerwaartse spiraal

[Gfire]

Oh yeah, definitely. But you can't know everything. Sometimes you just have to believe. Faith is the basis of my belief. My beliefs can't be proved or disproved, without supernatural interference. So I see how it's hard to understand the belief in something you can't prove.

To be a little more direct, answering the question. My faith is more than what I've been told or what I "know" (what is proven.) It's a personal thing, that each of us has to experience (or not experience,) for ourselves. It's not really easy to explain.

Edited by Gfire, 17 December 2009 - 11:04 PM.

[Mathijs]

To me it isn't hard to understand at all, in fact, it's really, really easy.

You're delusional, that's all there is to it. You are reasonably delusional though, I understand why, but that doesn't change anything.

Edited by Matias, 17 December 2009 - 11:07 PM.

[Allathar]

Indeed. At least I can admit I don't know why I'm alive (I guess live just doesn't have a reason) and how the universe was created, instead of betting on the man behind the clouds.

But, answer me, why believe in God rather than Allah? Because you were raised that way?

Anyway, I'm tired of repeating my anti-religious rantings and points here again. I'm going back to watching BSG. Good stuff, can't believe I didn't start watching that sooner

[Kwen]

Religion and anti-religion will never agree.

Neither are right to the other, and neither will ever accept/agree with the other.

I will not state my standpoint on the matter, seeing as it does not matter... (wow... hate using two of the same words back to back like that...)

I recommend, before the argument gets any more heated and too many emotions flare up, that it stops now.

[Gfire]

Thanks, Kwen. Wise words. It was getting a little out of hand.