28 replies to this topic

[isledebananas]

The Galadhrim Warriors are currently kind of out of place. They are kind of the heavy troops but they are really strong and make the base Lorien troops pretty obsolete. They don't really fit a niche roll that many other unique units do. Personally I think that they should be made into the Elite for the faction. As this is the Lothlórien faction I think the Galadhrim warriors should be in this position. Also their main function should be as archers though still have toggle.

Of course this leaves the Noldor Warriors who are too cool to leave out. The only main presence of great Noldor Warriors would be in Rivendell(maybe some in Lindon but those might be there to leave ME). That is also where the last great Elven Lords remain sans the 2 in Lorien. So I thought since there are these important heroes that there guard should be the greatest warriors of remaining Elves. So the Noldor Warriors could be made into slave hordes of some heroes. I think that Celeborn and Elrond should both have 1 horde of Noldor Warriors in tow. Galadriel should also at least get one, but maybe 2 given her greater importance.

I guess they would be there till killed off. They won't be able to respawn though if they all die. However, if the hero they are supposed to guard dies and is revived they come back with him or her. I don't know if they can be respawned at the level they died or even if it should be like that if its doable.

[Arveanor]

Yeah, the elves definitely have too many 'elite units' and I don't think they all really get used properly, so I definitely like this idea

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

I would make the Noldor Warriors summons of some sort and have Galadhrim Warriors as elite. This may be more accurate as the Noldor were an extinct warrior class by the Third Age, only mere legends of the Last Alliance. Because of thsi, they may be good as an Elrond/spellbook summon.

[khamulrulz]

i think that the noldor warriors should still be an anti-hero unit, but the main difference between them and the galadhrim warriors is that the noldor warriors are heavily armored and are better with swords.

the galadhrim warriors should not get heavy armor, and should stay as "lorien marchwardens". they will be better with arrows, and also be stealthy.

[isledebananas]

Elrond and Galadriel are both important figures within the Noldor and Celeborn did along with Galadriel govern a part of Lindon and later Eregion. I don't think its too far-fetched that some loyal Noldor would stay close to them for whatever need. That is why I think it makes sense that they could have some sort of special guard. However, I think the horde size should be different from the current Noldor Warriors. What is it right now 3 rows of 5 units? I think it should either be 1-2 rows of 5 units plus the banner carrier of course.

Them not having heavy armor doesn't make sense if you go by the movies. There they all had really good armor almost similar to the Noldor we see in the FotR opening just with different helms and no shield. However, I do agree that the main difference between the two. The Galadhrim as archers would be the best with superior range and fire rate whereas Noldor would have shorter range and longer fire rate but with a slightly stronger attack but wouldn't make up for the range and fire rate. However, they would be superior in close combat with stronger armor and damage. I think they should get a auto ability that fires with the attack that causes knockback similar to the movies.

The problem with making them Marchwardens as you say is that they make other units obsolete and it becomes similar to the things in the RJ-RotWK mod. If they get stealth then they are kind of between the regular archers and the Mirkwood archers. The regular archers should be buffed a bit to armor and health so they can fight in the thick of things whereas the Mirkwood are there for hit and run and range and not to be in the thick of things. If Galadhrim are like a stronger combo of the above 2 then the purpose of both of these other 2 units is gone and there will be no need to build them. With some factions like Mordor its good to have redundancies its somewhat lore accurate too. With Elves though I think its better to make them more compact with less redundancies. Part of the reason I thought things needed a change is to prevent obsolete units and give the Galadhrim there proper place.

Edited by isledebananas, 09 January 2010 - 02:28 AM.

[Damrod]

Something to keep in mind is that the stock elf units are incredibly weak. They have good damage output but have very little health and get killed very easily. Very seldom do any of my melee units survive a battle in a skirmish, and I usually end up only having a ton of archers at the end. However, the Galadrim warriors can take a fairly good beating and make better swordman than archers. (They deal about the same damage with the sword as with the bow, so I leave the shooting to the Mirkwood guys) They also cost 1000 per battalion, which is quite a lot, particularly at the start of the game.

If there are to be base changes, the elves still need to have good reliable sword units. Spear units, as a rule, are not that great against other infantry, and the stock elf sword guys are too weak to last long in combat, so some kind of heavy, late-game infantry still needs to be present in the team. Maybe come up with a type of swordmen that look similar to Glorfindel, like Rivendel sword masters or something.

[Elvenlord]

You could just remove the bows from the noldor and just make the beastly swordsmen units. I mean some badass elves who can mow down weak infantry like orcs indefinitely.

[khamulrulz]

yeah. making the noldor warriors only melee would mean that they would be strong infantry, which is what the elven faction lacks. i'm personally against bodyguards for heroes, so the noldor warriors should be an actual unit. the lorien swordsmen would not be redundant, because they would be faster and stealthier than noldor warriors.

as for ranged units, here is what i propose:

lorien archers: decent armor, decent range, good accuracy, can stealth in trees
mirkwood archers: poor armor, great range, great accuracy, can stealth in trees, elven cloak ability makes them invisible.
galadhrim marchwardens: average armor, decent range, good accuracy, can stealth in trees, can toggle to sword, limited to 3 battalions.

basically, you would want to make lorien archers because they are better armored, and mirkwood archers for their better range. marchwardens are good all-round, and can toggle to sword (which they are not as good at), but they are limited to 3 battalions.

[isledebananas]

The main thing as Prince said up above is that the presence of the Noldor is very little during this time. Them being regular is definitely out, but them being Elite means there is still a steady supply of these guys which isn't the case. While they would follow the hero around doesn't mean you can't give commands to them like toggle or weapons song and who to attack they would just be tied to the hero and can't get too far from them. As I believe both Elrond and Galadriel need to be more buffed and relegated to summons from Fortress having a guard around to make sure they don't get killed before their timer runs out in my opinion is good.

I understand the case with the base troops of the Elves are weak. However, I think they could get some more buffing through levels and upgrades. This makes sense as while the Noldor themselves are few their lore and craft still remain and can be easily given to others increasing the strength of their Silvan kin. I think the Elves should get some of the biggest boosts from FB and HA since the Noldor craftsmen are considered to be the best. Perhaps even an upgrade to both called Noldor training that boosts their attack speed considerably or even causes enemies to miss attacks(if that's possible). Anyways their main strength should be the archers.

See the thing with the powerful archers is if the Galadhrim become regular even if relegated to 3 battalions its enough. The Galadhrim can be in the thick of things with some heroes and the archers mow everything else down easily. That then leaves the Lorien swordsmen who are relegated to hiding in trees and ambushing siege and pikemen who should be defended by stronger troops anyways. In essence they become pretty obsolete. That works well in other factions but I just don't see it as the Elven thing. All their people are well trained and strong the only problem is equipment which they can make.

[ttandchotmail]

The goal of the noldor warriors and others of the like in other factions is to have an elite unit. These will be changed as we go, probably a reduction to the amount a player can build will be the way to go so as to not make the normal infantry obsolete. I think the idea was to only allow the player to build 3 battalions at a time but we'll have to go by faction type as the nolder warriors are able to join two battalions together to make one large unit. So maybe the player might be able to build 4 battalions for the elven faction as an odd number would mean one battlion would have nobody to connect to.

In some circumstances one battalion might only have 4 soldiers. And as it gains a level in experience one more soldier could be added.

Some might even be able to reach level 7 in experience like the ones in the expansion pack

There''s a lot to go over and much to choose from so going by a faction by faction standing might be the way to go with these elite units.

[khamulrulz]

i agree that anti-hero units should have only a few guys in a battalion - 15 tower guards in a battalion is a bit much. i think guys like the noldor warriors are best limited to 2 small battalions, keeping them rare.

[Námo]

... the Noldor were an extinct warrior class by the Third Age, only mere legends of the Last Alliance. ...

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this statement, as it is NOT supported by the lore in Tolkiens works.

It may be, that Tolkien didn't write much on neither the Elves of Lindon or the Dwarves of Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) in the published version of LotR, for the simple reason that the action did take place in other parts of Middle-earth. This is by any means not the same as implying that those peoples were 'extinct'.

On the contrary, there are a lot of hints in the lore suggesting the opposite view. In the many drafts for LotR, published in The History of Middle-earth Vol. VI to IX, Tolkien frequently made a synopsis concerning the possible evolving of the narrative (entitled "The Story foreseen from *place-name*), and the story indeed take several courses during its evolution; much of this lore were NOT rejected by Tolkien, mostly the narrative were just changed. From this lore you might safely assume, that the Elves of Noldorin origin (who in the 3rd Age should be called Golodhrim (Sindarin for Elves of Noldorin origin)) were just as strong as the Galadhrim of the Golden Wood, or the Farothrim (peoples of Hunters) of Northern Mirkwood.

A few years ago I embarked on a long article on the different 'tribes' or 'subcultures' of the Elves, their realms and the origin of their inhabitants (as all the Elven Realms in 3rd Age have mixed populations), the naming in Sindarin of different types of warriors (and civilians) and those names relation to the different Elven peoples of the 3rd Age: Golodhrim [mainly Forlindon and Imladris], Galadhrim [Lothlórien], Farothrim [Thranduil's Realm], Falathrim [mainly Harlindon] and the Eglathrim [Edhellond]. Only the last one might be called 'extinct', as (not all(?), most of(?)) those elves either went over sea to Valinor, or settled among their kin in Lindon.

So, dubious assumptions as in this topic might eventually compel me to continue with that article.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Well, I'm sure you know best Namo, so I've changed my mind. I just thought that as the Noldor were shown only in the Last Alliance in the films, that Rivendell had more contemporary warriors at least in looks (i.e. different armour, weapons etc.).

I mean armour and weapons have significantly chnaged for the Numeroreans into Minas Tirith rules by Gondor,.

[Námo]

... I just thought that as the Noldor were shown only in the Last Alliance in the films, that Rivendell had more contemporary warriors ...

Rivendell were founded in 2nd Age (1697) by Elrond, after the destruction of Ost-in-Edhil ('Fortress of Elves'), the Eregion stronghold of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (People of the Jewel-smiths'), greatest of whom was Celebrimbor, the maker of the three Elven Rings. At that time Elrond was Captain of the Noldorin forces of Eriador, appointed by Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor. Although Tolkien sometimes describes Rivendell as just "The last homely House before the Wilderness" (the Hobbit), other writings make it clear that Rivendell is really a 'fortress' or 'stronghold'.

At the end of 3rd Age Rivendell were mostly inhabited by Elves of Noldorin origin, but it is also said that some Sindarin Lords settled there; I think we can assume then, that some Sindarin people did follow their Lords and settled there too, although it remained primarily a Noldorin settlement. Concerning the armour and weapons, I don't think they would have changed much; considering the very long history of Elven Craftsmanship, their equipment were already highly refined at the time of the Last Alliance.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

... I just thought that as the Noldor were shown only in the Last Alliance in the films, that Rivendell had more contemporary warriors ...

Rivendell were founded in 2nd Age (1697) by Elrond, after the destruction of Ost-in-Edhil ('Fortress of Elves'), the Eregion stronghold of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (People of the Jewel-smiths'), greatest of whom was Celebrimbor, the maker of the three Elven Rings. At that time Elrond was Captain of the Noldorin forces of Eriador, appointed by Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor. Although Tolkien sometimes describes Rivendell as just "The last homely House before the Wilderness" (the Hobbit), other writings make it clear that Rivendell is really a 'fortress' or 'stronghold'.

At the end of 3rd Age Rivendell were mostly inhabited by Elves of Noldorin origin, but it is also said that some Sindarin Lords settled there; I think we can assume then, that some Sindarin people did follow their Lords and settled there too, although it remained primarily a Noldorin settlement. Concerning the armour and weapons, I don't think they would have changed much; considering the very long history of Elven Craftsmanship, their equipment were already highly refined at the time of the Last Alliance.

I see. Well, I guess that Noldor should definately feature as long as the other rivendell units share similar coloured armour.

btw. you are awesome with the Lore.

[isledebananas]

Just to check Námo which area would be populated my more Noldor, Lindon or Rivendell?

The goal of the noldor warriors and others of the like in other factions is to have an elite unit. These will be changed as we go, probably a reduction to the amount a player can build will be the way to go so as to not make the normal infantry obsolete. I think the idea was to only allow the player to build 3 battalions at a time but we'll have to go by faction type as the nolder warriors are able to join two battalions together to make one large unit. So maybe the player might be able to build 4 battalions for the elven faction as an odd number would mean one battlion would have nobody to connect to.

In some circumstances one battalion might only have 4 soldiers. And as it gains a level in experience one more soldier could be added.

Some might even be able to reach level 7 in experience like the ones in the expansion pack

There''s a lot to go over and much to choose from so going by a faction by faction standing might be the way to go with these elite units.

I do agree that limiting the battalion size of Elites to make them more unique is great idea. The larger size really doesn't help them much since you have people in the back not attacking anyone. I still don't think that limiting the amount of Galadhrim Warriors would make a difference 3-4 battalions with all upgrades is more than enough. Backed up with tons of Mirkwood archers and 2-3 heroes that should be enough. No matter what happens the Lorien swordsmen get marginalized. I just think it seems a bit ridiculous for any elven unit to become obsolete since they should all be at a very high level of combat proficiency. The only role would end up being as a meat shield which given Elven dwindling numbers seems a bit ridiculous for them to use their people as such; that's more an Evil side tactic.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

I think it would be a bad idea to take this mod in the direction of many other mods which how many different units of which many easily become obsolete. Even now, having two elite dual-weapon toggle units for the elves is breaching this line. Though Noldor warriors may be slightly stronger/better protected/slower/quicker/more expensive than Galadhrim, you've still got too many ranged units.

For any faction, I think there can be a maximum of 3 units of the same attack type (e.g. slash, shock, pierce, cavalry etc.) before obsoleteness kicks in. For example, it would be pushing it to have Minas Tirith Archers (as basic), Ithilien Rangers (as advanced) and Dunadan Rangers (as elite). With elves currently having Lothlorien Archers, Mirkwood Archers, Galadrhim and Noldor, it's really obsolete.

When I want a quick game, even on Brutal, I often find that building cheap heroes to combat the early enemy waves whilst saving up for the best ranged units the faction has to offer and then spamming with those archers works well. One problem is that in almost any game of the sort, ranged units pwn any other type of infantry. After accumulating a considerable amount of archers, I work my way towards the enemy base with seige and barely touch my other units after the first 20minutes or so. Cost differences are so insignificant that I can save up for my Galadhrim (1000) within 2 minutes after building a few mallorns instead of building up an army of lorien archers and upgrading etc. To solve this, and make the need for game progression and army development, prices could be more varied or resource income could be made much slower.

Having the Noldor as a limited battalion unit is good as they do not dominate the battlefield and indirectly serve as support units, kind of like permenant summons in a way. I would make Mirkwood Archers purely stealth with very little damage so that Lorien archers are actually the advanced unit. Galadhrim would be one up from them and Noldor would be limited battalions.

After a lot of thought and much deliberation, my opinion is to pretty much to keep things the way they are.

[isledebananas]

Having the Noldor as a limited battalion unit is good as they do not dominate the battlefield and indirectly serve as support units, kind of like permenant summons in a way. I would make Mirkwood Archers purely stealth with very little damage so that Lorien archers are actually the advanced unit. Galadhrim would be one up from them and Noldor would be limited battalions.

I do agree that the Lorien archers should be used in the midst of combat whereas the Mirkwood archers are more for stealth and not being attacked. They should have superior attack range, movement speed, and damage. However the Lorien archers should have more hp, armor, and attack rate. That way the Mirkwood units are more like snipers whereas the Lorien are the true fighting troops.

I still don't agree with the Galadhrim where they are. If they are better than Lorien archers now they are marginalizing two units. Both the Swordsmen and Archers would become worthless since with Galadhrim in the front and Mirkwood support it should be enough. And if you decided to go all archers its good too since Galadhrim are stronger than Lorien archers.

[khamulrulz]

well, the galadhrim could be limited as well, to say only 3 battalions. then, once those 3 are made, you would have to make more lorien swordsmen and archers. noldor warriors would be elite swordsmen, and be limited to 2 battalions.

there would be a similar structure for "anti-hero" units like these in all factions, like khazad guard limited to 2 and veterans limited to 3.

edit: by the way, rivendell lancers and mithlond sentries get the same shiny golden armor as noldor warriors when they get the elven armor upgrade. this makes sense as the elves of rivendell and (i believe) lindon were mainly noldorin in origin. as for lorien archers and warriors, their elven armor upgrade is just light leaf-shaped plates.

Edited by khamulrulz, 10 January 2010 - 05:37 AM.

[Námo]

Just for reference, a very gross outline of Elven Races and Realms (will be commented in a later post):

from: A Tolkien Bestary, by David Day; Mitchell Bearzley Publishers Ltd., London 1992

Edited by Námo, 10 January 2010 - 01:45 PM.