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BFME2- Factions


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#1 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:21 PM

Well, after a long time away from bfme2 I decided to reinstall the sucker on my laptop and give it a go. I installed bt2dc, since in my opinion it's the most balanced version of the game, and played a few matches. I must admit, it was a lot of fun. But there were things I didn't like, too. Which, as it often does, motivated me to formulate my own idea for a mod.

Here are the high points.

1- Formula Factions
I loved the diversity of every faction in bfme1. I loved how you could play Rohan using cavalry exclusively, and I loved the massive wall of orcs with only trolls and siege weapons for Mordor that could destroy all opposition with leadership-fueled awesomeness and the straight-up BAMFness of the Nazgul. Basically, I loved the diversity. And who shouldn't? After all, diversity is what really propelled games like Starcraft to greatness, coupled with fine-tuned balancing and incredibly anal patch-support. But Bfme2, a decent game in its own right, really lacks diversity. Every faction really has a lot of the same food with a slightly different flavor. Swordsmen, pikemen, archers, cavalry, siege, and heroes, with a few variations here and there. I flipping hate this. While some things are certainly common to Tolkien's style of medieval warfare, they shouldn't be clear-cut all across the board. Which is why I like units like half-trolls, ents, spiderlings, bfme1 elven warriors, and Haradrim lancers. They're all more of the same hack'n'slash goodness served up a little differently. Sure, games like Sins of a Solar Empire take the whole "every faction gets this" thing to the extreme, but even there every faction has such a diverse flavor from upgrades and such that you focus more on individual advantage, rather than cookie-cutter roles.

2- Units replacing units
RotWK was terrible. It added more of the same and destroyed the balance, and really only added old models out of Worldbuilder to serve irrelevant roles in the first place C'mon, we've all played Finalmoria. Black orcs? 2004, man. Mordor with cavalry? Psh, no. Anything relevantly added to the dwarves or goblins? Nope. I hate the concept of building a weaker unit early on, only to be replaced by a stronger unit later. True, your army should diversify and get stronger as you tech up, but units in general shouldn't replace other units. Bfme2 did a fair job with this, but I'd like to take it further. No half-troll swordsmen, no black orcs, no Rohan spearmen. Just units with specific strengths and weaknesses.

3- Bases should be BASES!
This one's not so abstract. When you fall back to your base, your base should be, oh, I don't know, relatively SAFE. That doesn't necessarily mean walls all around it and hordes of archers raining barbed death down on all who dare encroach upon your sacred ground, but it does mean that one battering ram with a few guys with bows and swords shouldn't be able to topple down the whole damn place. This is something I really like about Nazgul's Special Extended Edition, but in the purpose of what I'm aiming for I wouldn't go quite as far as he did. In fact, the game I'd make would be closer to vanilla bfme1 in pace, but further away in levels of awesome. I'd like to see a build radius put around fortresses that buffs nearby allied buildings significantly, and overall I'd to see more rocks flying through the air that don't topple a building in two or three hits. However, those outlying farms would die just as fast as they do in vanilla, so be wary. I'd like to make sentry towers much stronger on their own, but keep them vulnerable to things like rams and catapults. I'd like to put a motivation on forward outposts, too, which I'd implement into the AI build plots as well.

Those are the high points, but a lot of the individual faction diversity would come from pitching ideas around. I don't want to add a whole buttload of new units, and I might even take a few things out. If this mod ever happened, the initial changes would purely be in the stats. However, I do have quite a few ideas for the Goblins and Dwarves particularly, since I've pondered about them the most, and since they're my favorite factions. =P I'd really like to diversify the upgrades beyond just Forged blades and heavy armor, and even add a few new ones as well. Finally, I'd like to cut some of the crap out. A lot of the units in the game are just plain ugly, and I'd like to see them reskinned and redone. But that's just icing on the cake, and naturally would come with time.

This mod would definitely draw a lot on the lore, but it's more centered around competition than anything else. I want to make a mod that does way more justice to the competitiveness of the game, and forces the player to pick their side, learn it, and kick some serious ass. No new campaigns, no new fluffy units that only exist for the purpose of being fluffy. Just pure gameage.

As for myself, I know my way around finalbig and have some coding experience from college, but most of this idea is centered around the math of everything, which just about anyone can mod. The new stuff, as I've mentioned, would be much lower in priority. I'd limit the number of placeholders since the number of units per faction isn't going to change much and simply load the values into existing units and change the unit itself later.

So, if it's relatively easy, why don't I just shut up and do it myself? Because I need input. I don't want to make something based solely on my own judgment, because frankly, my judgment sucks. Plus, the new stuff gives me and anyone else interested the opportunity to flex their artistic muscles.

That's about it. If anyone's interested, I'll post what I have for the Goblins and Dwarves, but if not, I'll do absolutely nothing. Well, not completely nothing. There's eating, sleeping and classes. But ehh, you know what I mean. Thanks.

Edited by Garrison Nomad, 15 January 2010 - 04:23 PM.

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#2 Devon

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:02 PM

Well, I'd play it if you did it :tongevil:

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#3 dojob

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 11:47 PM

Mhm, it sounds perfect tbh; diverse, competitive, and I can still run around lolling at enemy farms with raiding cavalry :tongevil:
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And please add Bear-mans


#4 Spartan184

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

Well so far it looks perfect TBH like dojob said. If you need any help in coding, heroes, units, or other things I can help if you get stuck.


 

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#5 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:53 AM

That would be absolutely glorious, thanks!

Here are some of the ideas for the goblins that I have:

Goblin Swordsmen have a passive battle frenzy ability that increases their armor rating while they are in combat. This means that they can better hold their own against melee attackers and can't have death rained down upon them while they're in the fray. However, they're quite susceptible to range damage when they're not in combat, so the trick is to keep them moving at all times.

I really like what Maddox did in bt2dc with the archer revenge damage, but I don't like the poison effect. So instead, the armor upgrade for all goblins is a spiked armor upgrade that increases their base armor, increases melee units' damage output, and adds revenge damage to all that get trampled. The Goblin Flameborn weaponry upgrade increases attack speed, rather than damage, which will make the armor make more sense in functionality.

Goblins will not have a dedicated anti-cavalry unit, as I see the half-trolls being redone entirely (eventually giving them swords and shields, but that's on down the road) and serving a somewhat different purpose. They do considerable damage, but mainly serve as front-line damage absorbers. They're nearly immune to arrows (from the front) and will have a passive regeneration upgrade. While all this may paint them to be extremely powerful, they're vulnerable to heroes, as well as flanking, where their armor is considerably lower. You won't build an entire force of them, because with their lower squad numbers you won't be able to do as much damage as you would with pairing them up with goblin warriors, and they also have a very poor sight range. You will be able to use the formation ability of the original half-trolls, rendering them immobile, but immune to flanking. They will only damage those who attack them while in this formation.

One of the other ideas I've been shifting around is the idea of the Goblin warg riders and how to make them different. While I love the spider rider model, I've never really liked them in the game. Their removal would, again, come much later, and statistically they'd be balanced with the rest of the faction, along with Spiderlings. But I'd really like to replace them one day with my interpretation of the Wargs from the Hobbit. These wargs are more wolf-like than their Isengard counterparts, and have longer legs and bigger claws. They'd probably come in squads of 8, and their animations would have them getting up on their hind legs to attack, with the riders hanging on for dear life on their backs. They're really barely cavalry; they'd really be more like extremely tough Spiderlings save for their trample. But ahh, they're nonessential...but if I could grab my Comp-Sci friend and make them, it'd be awesome. XD

As for the trolls and giants, trolls would be upgradable with melee weapons rather than just grabbing trees, and could be upgraded with the spiked armor upgrade as well. The giants would remain relatively the same, save for a desparately-needed reskin and a slight size reduction, but that's really up to personal preference (although it would make pathfinding a bit more fluid). The drake would probably stay the same, as for the rest of the powers. I don't want to touch spellbooks just yet, as in my opinion they're all fairly balanced.

Those are spome of my thoughts for the goblins. Bear in mind aesthetically this mod is more of a "this is what I thought it looked liked" mod, so artistic interpretation is the big deal here. though, save for reskins here and there and the occasional new unit, things will stay relatively the same. Not much new material, just coding.

Edited by Garrison Nomad, 16 January 2010 - 01:55 AM.

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#6 Devon

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:44 AM

Another possible suggestion is to scrap battalions/hordes and turn it into a single unit game. Reduce build costs, times, and upgrade prices accordingly and suddenly you have a game that plays very differently.

We had an alpha version of this on the old Last Alliance mod, it was pretty sweet.

Edited by Yoda, 16 January 2010 - 02:46 AM.

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#7 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:37 AM

Hmm. I've had this thought, too, but I tend to like battalions for a game as "big" as Bfme. Too many individual units can be hard to manage when they're as small as the ones in Bfme2. However, one of the things I do want to do is reduce the squad sizes of a bunch of the good faction squads, and redistribute the health accordingly.

Hmm...I haven't ever played Bfme with single units, though. Who knows, maybe it could work. There are a few units that could work as individuals...particularly for the Dwarves. One of the things I forgot to mention was the new goblin banner carrier, which isn't a banner carrier at all, but rather a goblin elite. Instead of purchasing banners for your goblin hordes, you purchase goblin elites, which are stronger, do more damage, and improve the overall damage of the squad. They function basically the same as normal banner carriers in terms of respawning units, but you won't get one when your squad levels up. The same are available for goblin archers and half-trolls, and the warg riders will get a mountain orc riding a warg alpha, complete with KNOCKBACK. I know, it could be radically imba, but most of the goblin units, while powerful, tend to have average armor with lower health. The orcs from Mordor, on the other hand, will have higher health with lower armor. But that comes later.

By the way, thanks for all the imput from all of you. I never thought I'd get much response for this idea, and you guys have been helpful. :tongevil: Cheers.

ADDED: The first thing to get this mod going is the passive leadership the fortresses need to give to surrounding buildings. I really have no idea how to make this work, since generally leadership affects units, and I'm not well versed with attribute modifiers. Also, The leadership can't stack, or else three fortresses together would be indestructible. All help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Edited by Garrison Nomad, 16 January 2010 - 05:38 AM.

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#8 pk500

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:56 PM

I'm a newbie (not a n00b) and would love to help you out, if I knew what I was doing...

DETAIL: I've messed around with code and did a few tutorials, but thats it.

Edited by pk500, 21 January 2010 - 01:53 AM.


#9 Guest_Guest_Dragonzzilla_*_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:30 AM

Very good, very good. :) Goblins are one of my most favorite factions, but warriors missed their health (COME ON! 70!?!), But I would just want to add something...

Warning: This may have no grip on LOTR Lore
If you've played the LOTR The Third Age, in moria, you face off against several of these bad boys:
Goblin Shamans, goblins who cast magic-like dark spells.

And plus, a new building:
The Balrog Altar, basically it would be the Goblin's buff structure, like statues for good factions.

Hordes that have the "banner carrier" Goblin Alpha should have a passive poison blade upgrade, no fee
And Alpha's should dual-wield or carry goblin-sized claymores

#10 Guest_Guest_Dragonzzilla_*_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:56 AM

Plus, "goblins" sounds so premature. I mean come on, its not only Goblins here! there's bad doggy Wargs; big & ugly arachnids; powerful & mighty dragons... I got a much better name
It all adds up, Spiders+Dragons+Wargs+etc. would equal... :) Dwellers of the Deep. :D I know, it might sound stupid.

Dwellers of the Deep
Heroes:


Azog
Never seen Azog in combat, since I never got ROTWK. Enlighten me If you have.

Drogoth the Dragon lord
Drogoth, what can I say about Drogoth… well, to start, he is non-canon to Tolkien Lore. But, I believe he must be beefed up in armor (I mean come on, he wears armor, even though it’s only like a harness/ helmet with some neck armor).

Gorkil the Goblin King
Like his dragon counterpart, Gorkil was invented by EA. Mmm… not sure what to say about him… ideas? :p

Smaug
Smaug would be very powerful, but would… (like Drogoth) would… I don’t know… suck against Elves. He would have a high armor rate, but would take slightly more damage in the front, (I know that sounds sucky, but his weak spot is located on the left of his chest *cough, left breast, cough*, Bard shot there, Smaug got PWNED :xd: )

Balrog (Ringhero)
Bring in firefighters, we are going to have a Hell of a barbeque! Durin’s Bane returns to his goblin worshippers as a flamin’ deity of doom, as a hero, he would WHOP the enemy; but when he dies, he would make a large red explosion. But, since he’s here til’ death, he would weaker than his stronga’ summoned alter-ego.

Soldiers:

Khazad-dum Blades
This are pretty little goblins aren't they (NOT!), they would replace normal warriors.

Ettenmoor Archers
Yet again, would replace normal archers.

Half-Troll Warriors
Would be the main melee scrappers of Goblins, protected in he front, get the pain in the rear.

Beastmasters
Goblins would would ride wargs, AKA Goblin calvary

Cave Trolls
The same, only can wear Lost dwarf armor too & can wield a chain.

Mountain Giant
The same.

Fire Drake
Would be trained at a expensive Dragon Nest building. But since Dragons don't want all their young to die, you can only have three at a time.

Buildings:

+ Balrog Altar
Buffing Goblin-statue in likeness of Mr. Balrog

+ Dragon Nest
Trains lil' baby dragons.

Upgrades:

Lost Dwarven craft (replaces the scavenged armor)
Armor upgrade

#11 The Best Guest

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 04:53 PM

Well well well Look who's back, good ole garrison. How's it going buddy. I like the diversity idea, you may want to just focus on dwarfs and goblins, at least right off the bat. Thus making it easier to balance and adding to the competitive feel.
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#12 Kwen

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:55 AM

Necro post?

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#13 Elric

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:49 PM

This sounds very intriguing. When i finish my mod which will be done by September i would love help out with coding and some scripting or general ideas for that matter.

#14 Elvenlord

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:22 AM

Guys. This was last year.

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#15 Spartan184

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:55 AM

Yeah about time someone told them.


 

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#16 Elric

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 04:32 AM

lol i just saw that some posted here last in the forum so i was checking it out i feel dumb now...

#17 The Best Guest

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:41 PM

same.... wow really should check these dates XD
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#18 Bashkuga

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 02:37 PM

http://general-gynecology.com/


-_-"

don't worry, my secret parts are healthy :p

Edited by Fredius, 29 November 2011 - 02:38 PM.


#19 Ridder Geel

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 02:43 PM

Oh great another spam-ish bot ._.'
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