200 replies to this topic

[Thats me!]

So while the Qu'ran does appear to call for the killing of infidels

well,it does't call for that.

If we had actual Islamic people here, I wouldn't be humoring myself with ignorant fun.

you never know what you can find on the inrernet.

[Puppeteer]

well,it does't call for that.

I'm not sure if you meant "does" or "doesn't". Either way, it does - my friends affirmed that, I assure you.

[Námo]

There actually are a lot of references to this, in the Qur'an itself, in the Sira (life of the Prophet) and in the Ahadith (Sayings of the Prophet) - the three sacred scripts of Islam.

The internet abounds with creditable sources on these, just to list a few:

Jihad Watch: Daily reports on jihad, including some very good background material.

Islam is a Peaceful Religion
Islam is a Tolerant Religion

If you wants 'hard evidence', see this: MEMRI TV - a lot of clips from various islamic TV-channels. To view the older ones, you'll have to log in. Really recommended.

Edited by Námo, 07 March 2010 - 02:51 PM.

[Vortigern]

Islam alone of all the great religions of the human race was born sword in hand. Islam has always relied on the sword, and for thirteen hundred years the mullah who reads the Friday prayers in the mosque wears a sword, even if only made of wood, as a symbol of his creed.

Our flowers are the sword and dagger,
Narcissus and myrtle are nought;
Our drink is the blood of our foemen,
Our goblet his skull when we’ve fought.

I could find others, but I can't be bothered. Anyway, the point is this: if you look at parts of the Qu'ran and the other Muslim holy texts you will find numerous and repeated references to slaying the infidels, stabbing things and generally being violent chaps. That said, the Bible has more than its fair share of murderous doctrine. I guess we're all just bastards.

EDIT: Except the Buddhists.

[Pasidon]

And Dolphins...

[Thats me!]

guys.i know you won't believe me,but the quran doesn't tell to kill people,killing people(even the non followers)is completely against what the quran says.

I'm not sure if you meant "does" or "doesn't". Either way, it does - my friends affirmed that, I assure you

were does your friend come from,just want to ask.
because i am muslim,and i know what i am talking about,and you know what,i don't care what religion other people do believe,i am"somehow"religious,and i live in a country where about 92% are non muslims,and i have no proplem with that.
quran doesn't say to kill innocent people at all,even non believers.

Islam alone of all the great religions of the human race was born sword in hand.

no it wasn't born with sword in hand.
and ali ibn abi taleb never said something like that
if i had time i will prove it,with alot of proves,but i don't have much time now,next time i will try to prove it.

to my knowldge also the bible doesn't say that,non of the religions say to kill the non believers of it.

Edited by Thats me!, 07 March 2010 - 06:58 PM.

[Allathar]

A lot of the people also don't believe that the Bible commands to kill gay people... Really, have you read the entirety of the Qu'ran?

[Pasidon]

In the Koran: Verse of the Sword... in the right perspective, it does say you're allowed to kill people who don't agree with your faith.

Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 07 March 2010 - 07:14 PM.

[Soul]

One word: HAARP.

Aw hell no.
*Shoots you*

[Námo]

... because i am muslim, and i know what i am talking about ... quran doesn't say to kill innocent people at all, even non believers ... it wasn't born with sword in hand ...

According to Islamic teaching, the Quran came down as a series of revelations from Allah through the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad, who then dictated it to his followers. While in Mecca, though he condemned paganism (for the most part), Muhammad showed great respect for the monotheism of the Christian and Jewish inhabitants. It is the Quranic revelations that came later in Muhammad's career, after he and the first Muslims left Mecca for the city of Medina, that transformed Islam from a relatively benign form of monotheism into an expansionary, military-political ideology that persists to this day.

Orthodox Islam does not accept that a rendering of the Quran into another language is a "translation" A point often made by Islamic apologists to defang criticism is that only Arabic readers may understand the Quran. But Arabic is a language like any other and fully capable of translation. Indeed, most Muslims are not Arabic readers.

Those Westerners who manage to pick up a translation of the Quran are often left bewildered as to its meaning thanks to ignorance of a critically important principle of Quranic interpretation known as "abrogation." The principle of abrogation - al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) - directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" - i.e., cancel and replace - earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca. The Quran itself lays out the principle of abrogation:

Quran 2:106: Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

It seems that 2:106 was revealed in response to skepticism directed at Muhammad that Allah's revelations were not entirely consistent over time. Muhammad's rebuttal was that "Allah is able to do all things" - even change his mind. To confuse matters further, though the Quran was revealed to Muhammad sequentially over some twenty years' time, it was not compiled in chronological order. When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the suras were ordered from longest to shortest with no connection whatever to the order in which they were revealed or to their thematic content. In order to find out what the Quran says on a given topic, it is necessary to examine the other Islamic sources that give clues as to when in Muhammad's lifetime the revelations occurred. Upon such examination, one discovers that the Meccan suras, revealed at a time when the Muslims were vulnerable, are generally benign; the later Medinan suras, revealed after Muhammad had made himself the head of an army, are bellicose.

Let us take, for example, 50:45, revealed in Mecca:

Quran 50:45: We know of best what they say; and you (O Muhammad) are not a tyrant over them (to force them to Belief). But warn by the Qur'an, him who fears My Threat.

Then there is this passage revealed just after the Muslims reached Medina and were still vulnerable:

Quran 2:256: There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

In contrast, take 9:5, commonly referred to as the "Verse of the Sword", revealed toward the end of Muhammad's life:

Quran 9:5: Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Having been revealed later in Muhammad's life than 50:45 and 2:256, the Verse of the Sword abrogates their peaceful injunctions in accordance with 2:106.
Sura 8, revealed shortly before Sura 9, reveals a similar theme:

Quran 8:39: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Quran 8:67: It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

Quran 9:29: Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 9:33: It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

The Quran's commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet's career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a "religion of peace."

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In Islam, Muhammad is considered al-insan al-kamil (the "ideal man"). Muhammad is in no way considered divine, nor is he worshipped (no image of Muhammad is permitted lest it encourage idolatry), but he is the model par excellence for all Muslims in how they should conduct themselves. It is through Muhammad's personal teachings and actions - which make up the "way of the Prophet," the Sunnah - that Muslims discern what is a good and holy life. Details about the Prophet - how he lived, what he did, his non-Quranic utterances, his personal habits - are indispensable knowledge for any faithful Muslim.

Knowledge of the Sunnah comes primarily from the hadiths ("reports") about Muhammad's life, which were passed down orally until codified in the eighth century AD, some hundred years after Muhammad's death. The hadiths comprise the most important body of Islamic texts after the Quran; they are basically a collection of anecdotes about Muhammad's life believed to have originated with those who knew him personally. There are thousands upon thousands of hadiths, some running to multiple pages, some barely a few lines in length. When the hadiths were first compiled in the eighth century AD, it became obvious that many were inauthentic. While the absolute authenticity of even a sound hadith is hardly assured, they are nonetheless accepted as authoritative within an Islamic context.

Because Muhammad is himself the measuring stick of morality, his actions are not judged according to an independent moral standard but rather establish what the standard for Muslims properly is.

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 7 Book 62 Number 88: Narrated Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 8 Book 82 Number 795: Narrated Anas: The Prophet cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 2 Book 23 Number 413: Narrated Abdullah bin Umar: The Jews {of Medina} brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque.

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 9 Book 84 Number 57: Narrated Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to Ali {the fourth Caliph} and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1 Book 2 Number 25: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

In Islam, there is no "natural" sense of morality or justice that transcends the specific examples and injunctions outlined in the Quran and the Sunnah. Because Muhammad is considered Allah's final prophet and the Quran the eternal, unalterable words of Allah himself, there is also no evolving morality that permits the modification or integration of Islamic morality with that from other sources. The entire Islamic moral universe devolves solely from the life and teachings of Muhammad.

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Along with the reliable hadiths, a further source of accepted knowledge about Muhammad comes from the Sira (life) of the Prophet, composed by one of Islam's great scholars, Muhammad bin Ishaq, in the eighth century AD.

Muhammad's prophetic career is meaningfully divided into two segments: the first in Mecca, where he labored for fourteen years to make converts to Islam; and later in the city of Medina (The City of the Apostle of God), where he became a powerful political and military leader. In Mecca, we see a quasi-Biblical figure, preaching repentance and charity, harassed and rejected by those around him; later, in Medina, we see an able commander and strategist who systematically conquered and killed those who opposed him. It is the later years of Muhammad's life, from 622 AD to his death in 632, that are rarely broached in polite company. In 622, when the Prophet was better than fifty years old, he and his followers made the Hijra (emigration or flight), from Mecca to the oasis of Yathrib - later renamed Medina - some 200 miles to the north. Muhammad's new monotheism had angered the pagan leaders of Mecca, and the flight to Medina was precipitated by a probable attempt on Muhammad's life. Muhammad had sent emissaries to Medina to ensure his welcome. He was accepted by the Medinan tribes as the leader of the Muslims and as arbiter of inter-tribal disputes.

Shortly before Muhammad fled the hostility of Mecca, a new batch of Muslim converts pledged their loyalty to him on a hill outside Mecca called Aqaba. Ishaq here conveys in the Sira the significance of this event:

Sira page 208: When God gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second {oath of allegiance at} Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of fealty. Now they {Muhammad's followers} bound themselves to war against all and sundry for God and his Apostle, while he promised them for faithful service thus the reward of paradise.

That Muhammad's nascent religion underwent a significant change at this point is plain. The scholarly Ishaq clearly intends to impress on his (Muslim) readers that, while in its early years, Islam was a relatively tolerant creed that would "endure insult and forgive the ignorant," Allah soon required Muslims "to war against all and sundry for God and his Apostle." The Islamic calendar testifies to the paramouncy of the Hijra by setting year one from the date of its occurrence. The year of the Hijra, 622 AD, is considered more significant than the year of Muhammad's birth or death or that of the first Quranic revelation because Islam is first and foremost a political-military enterprise. It was only when Muhammad left Mecca with his paramilitary band that Islam achieved its proper political-military articulation. The years of the Islamic calendar (which employs lunar months) are designated in English "AH" or "After Hijra."

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Unlike many religions, Islam includes a mandatory and highly specific legal and political plan for society called Sharia, which translates approximately as "way" or "path." The precepts of Sharia are derived from the commandments of the Quran and the Sunnah (the teachings and precedents of Muhammad as found in the reliable hadiths and the Sira). Together, the Quran and the Sunnah establish the dictates of Sharia, which is the blueprint for the good Islamic society. Because Sharia originates with the Quran and the Sunnah, it is not optional. Sharia is the legal code ordained by Allah for all mankind. To violate Sharia or not to accept its authority is to commit rebellion against Allah, which Allah's faithful are required to combat.

There is no separation between the religious and the political in Islam; rather Islam and Sharia constitute a comprehensive means of ordering society at every level. While it is in theory possible for an Islamic society to have different outward forms - an elective system of government, a hereditary monarchy, etc. - whatever the outward structure of the government, Sharia is the prescribed content. It is this fact that puts Sharia into conflict with forms of government based on anything other than the Quran and the Sunnah.

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A problem concerning law and order (with respect to Muslims in dar al-harb) arises from an ancient Islamic legal principle - that of taqiyya, a word the root meaning of which is "to remain faithful" but which in effect means "dissimulation." It has full Quranic authority (3:28 and 16:106) and allows the Muslim to conform outwardly to the requirements of unislamic or non-Islamic government, while inwardly "remaining faithful" to whatever he conceives to be proper Islam, while waiting for the tide to turn.

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4 Book 52 Number 269: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

"Taqiyya" is the religiously-sanctioned doctrine, with its origins in Shi'a Islam but now practiced by non-Shi'a as well, of deliberate dissimulation about religious matters that may be undertaken to protect Islam, and the Believers. An example of "Taqiyya" would be the insistence of a Muslim apologist that "of course" there is freedom of conscience in Islam, and then quoting that Qur'anic verse -- "There shall be no compulsion in religion." {2:256} But the impression given will be false, for there has been no mention of the Muslim doctrine of abrogation, whereby such an early verse as that about "no compulsion in religion" has been cancelled out by later, far more intolerant and malevolent verses. In any case, history shows that within Islam there is, and always has been, "compulsion in religion" for Muslims, and for non-Muslims.

Historically, examples of taqiyya include permission to renounce Islam itself in order to save one's neck or ingratiate oneself with an enemy. It is not hard to see that the implications of taqiyya are insidious in the extreme: they essentially render negotiated settlement - and, indeed, all veracious communication between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb - impossible. It should not, however, be surprising that a party to a war should seek to mislead the other about its means and intentions.

Due to the state of war between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb, reuses de guerre, i.e., systematic lying to the infidel, must be considered part and parcel of Islamic tactics. The parroting by Muslim organizations throughout dar al-harb that "Islam is a religion of peace," or that the origins of Muslim violence lie in the unbalanced psyches of particular individual "fanatics," must be considered as disinformation intended to induce the infidel world to let down its guard. Of course, individual Muslims may genuinely regard their religion as "peaceful" - but only insofar as they are ignorant of its true teachings.

In times when the greater strength of dar al-harb necessitates that the jihad take an indirect approach, the natural attitude of a Muslim to the infidel world must be one of deception and omission. Revealing frankly the ultimate goal of dar al-Islam to conquer and plunder dar al-harb when the latter holds the military trump cards would be strategic idiocy.

Fortunately for the jihadists, most infidels do not understand how one is to read the Quran, nor do they trouble themselves to find out what Muhammad actually did and taught, which makes it easy to give the impression through selective quotations and omissions that "Islam is a religion of peace." Any infidel who wants to believe such fiction will happily persist in his mistake having been cited a handful of Meccan verses and told that Muhammad was a man of great piety and charity. Digging only slightly deeper is sufficient to dispel the falsehood.

------------

EDIT: some text highlighted in color.

some nomenclature:

Dar al-Islam: 'camp' (or house) of the Believers {Muhammad's followers}, i.e. the part of the world under islamic rule.
Dar al-harb: 'camp' (or house) of War, i.e. the part of the world not under islamic rule, but occupied by the infidels. These are divided into two groups:

• Dhimmis, the 'people of the Book' (Jews and Christians) who eventually may be allowed to live under an islamic apartheid-system, paying special (high) taxes (Jizya), not carry any weapon, not riding horses etc. Dhimmis must in every way behave subordinate to their islamic ruler, and dhimmitude it not a right, but a favour bestowed by the ruling class (muslims) and may eventually be revoked.
• Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), who (according to the Quran) under islamic rule must either convert to islam or be killed.

source: [extract from] Islam 101, by Gregory M. Davis on Jihad Watch.

Edited by Námo, 09 March 2010 - 05:36 PM.

[Puppeteer]

TL;DR. You could have switched to talking about The Magic Roundabout briefly and honestly, no one would notice.

[Námo]

Well, I just tried to help my little brother, with a lot of quotes from his sacred scripts ...

... if i had time i will prove it, with alot of proves, but i don't have much time now ...

But since you didn't read it because it was too long, does that mean you want a summary?

[Pasidon]

I think playing the, "That was WAY to long" card is fair on this one.

[Vortigern]

Well, I just read the lot, and Námo, I fucking love you. That is the most complete and well-justified case I have ever seen put forward on an internet message board. Congratulations. If you guys want a gist, let it be this: Islam contradicts itself, but that's OK because Muhammad said that his later teachings were right (although it makes you wonder if he died before Allah could change his mind back again?) and because of said later teachings, Islam is become a fundamentally aggressive religion, so those who are naturally warmongering among them will happily try to kill us all. Also, Muslims base their life and moral code around Muhammad, so stoning adulterers and taking hands off of motherfuckers who be hatin' on the prophet is just fine and dandy.

So yeah, I think this debate has been conclusively won in favour of the "Islam wants you dead" side.

[Pasidon]

Debates being won on Revora? Hemph! That's impossible as long as someone else disagrees. But I like the outcome, so why not.

[Elvenlord]

That was amazing. Great job.

[Caspa]

That is the most complete and well-justified case I have ever seen put forward on an internet message board.

Yeah, the bar was set pretty fucking high on this one

Islam contradicts itself, but that's OK because Muhammad said that his later teachings were right

I can't believe I get to reuse this one, but here we go.
Hmmm, Muhammad is righteous and infallible. Just don't read these bits or we'll look all hypocritical and wrong.

Islam is become a fundamentally aggressive religion, so those who are naturally warmongering among them will happily try to kill us all. Also, Muslims base their life and moral code around Muhammad, so stoning adulterers and taking hands off of motherfuckers who be hatin' on the prophet is just fine and dandy.

So yeah, I think this debate has been conclusively won in favour of the "Islam wants you dead" side.

Islam, the religion of peace

See, if you wait long enough, everything comes full circle.

I slaughtered Christianity a few years back.
Námo has successfully executed Islam.
Scientology is slowly killing itself.
Who's next?

[Pasidon]

Since your religion got trashed, you're trashing the rest? Cas... that's sacrilegious, insulting, it'll make a lot of people mad, and I want in. Let's hit Catholics next, I say.

[Caspa]

Let's hit Catholics next, I say.

Caspianity never died, its' God just got bored.
Anyway, I destroyed Christianity, including Catholisism a few years ago on Revora.

[Pasidon]

Ah. Shame that I missed that debate. But feel free to bring another up to the plate here since the topic pretty much died.