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#61 Mathijs

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:55 AM

I too just read Námo's essay, and I must say, it is very eloquently written, devoid of any unfounded fear which is so common towards muslims today; it is all rather well argued and agreeable...

Though I disagree with the implied notion that all Islamic institutions and muslims in general use this ''facade'' in order to prepare for assimilation, simply because I don't think religious indoctrination, especially one so intricate, would override so easily the ''common'' sense of human beings. I am sure that certain institutions and individuals, mostly the preachers we have over here preaching their Jihad and getting away with it, do certainly live their daily lives waiting for their chance. But all of them? Impossible. In any organized manner? Improbable. That sounds like paranoia.

Edited by Matias, 08 March 2010 - 10:41 AM.

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#62 Pasidon

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 04:11 PM

Well... don't give him the credit when it was snatched from WMD:

http://www.weaponofm...War_-_Islam_101
http://www.weaponofm...lah_-_Islam_101
[url="http://www.weaponofmusicaldefense.com/thelibrary/The_Sunnah_—_the_"Way"_of_the_Prophet_Muhammad_-_Islam_101"]http://www.weaponofmusicaldefense.com/thel...mad_-_Islam_101[/url]

And so on...

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#63 Thats me!

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:56 PM

wow,there is alot i need type,...

have you read the entirety of the Qu'ran?

well,no i haven't.

In the Koran: Verse of the Sword... in the right perspective, it does say you're allowed to kill people who don't agree with your faith

well,no,it doesn't say that,if thats true,why do (muslim) people in islamic countries when kill non muslims also get the same penalty like they killed a muslim?,killing innocent people is completely forbiden,and about the faith:
quran 109(translated):say to the unbelievers,i don't worship what you worship,and you don't worship what i worship,and i will not worship what you worship,and you don't worship what i worship,you have your religion and i have mine..


well thats it about the faith,nothing about killing,killing is only allowed in war,and then,only those who fight,the ones who give up,kids and old people are not allowed to be killed.

According to Islamic teaching, the Quran came down as a series of revelations from Allah through the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad, who then dictated it to his followers. While in Mecca, though he condemned paganism (for the most part), Muhammad showed great respect for the monotheism of the Christian and Jewish inhabitants. It is the Quranic revelations that came later in Muhammad's career, after he and the first Muslims left Mecca for the city of Medina, that transformed Islam from a relatively benign form of monotheism into an expansionary, military-political ideology that persists to this day.

well isalm didn't transform to a military-political ideology,when mohamed and the muslims returned from madina to mekka,and "opened" it,non muslims lived there too..

Orthodox Islam does not accept that a rendering of the Quran into another language is a "translation" A point often made by Islamic apologists to defang criticism is that only Arabic readers may understand the Quran. But Arabic is a language like any other and fully capable of translation. Indeed, most Muslims are not Arabic readers.

if by orthodox you mean extreminants,then k,but i will tell you about the translation.
the quran can be translated,however not itself,but the meaning of it(i think its the same,anyway....),and there is alot of translated version to other languages,and also quran channels do translate it to other languages(altough read in arabic,the translation is right below it),but its preferd to stay in arabic.

earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca.

they don't overrule,they complete it,but the instructions are litterally the same,and most of the suras are revealed in mekka.

When the Quran was finally collated into book form under Caliph Uthman, the suras were ordered from longest to shortest with no connection whatever to the order in which they were revealed or to their thematic content.

i don't know why the order is so,but i am 100% sure that it have nothing to do with longest to shortest,some short ones are before long ones.

Upon such examination, one discovers that the Meccan suras, revealed at a time when the Muslims were vulnerable, are generally benign; the later Medinan suras, revealed after Muhammad had made himself the head of an army, are bellicose.

well mohamed wasn't head of an army,he was a leader of a country at that time,but not an army,and mediana suras are not bellicose,alot of people misunderstood it,really.

Quran 2:106 : Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

well,its a right translation,but it doesn't have to with changing mids.
(i need to check about that one to say the truth,but i am sure about that it doesn't have to do with changing minds)

Quran 50:45: We know of best what they say; and you (O Muhammad) are not a tyrant over them (to force them to Belief). But warn by the Qur'an, him who fears My Threat.

right translation....

Quran 2:256: There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

that one too.

in contrast, take 9:5, commonly referred to as the "Verse of the Sword", revealed toward the end of Muhammad's life:

Quran 9:5: Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

they aren't called the scared months,but anyway....
in these months,war wasn't allowed,and this was a war time,and tell me when in war time,if you see an enemy,will you gave him a coffe?
also read waht was written before it,and you will know that you missunderstand it(9:1 to 9:4)and the ones after it too.
for the 3 under it there is alittle mistranslation and you need to read the full sura(or atleast until where you typed)to clearly understand it
for example:
in 8:67:it isn't (It is not for a Prophet)but:(there was not a prophet).

as for 9:33 i don't see talking about killing,and "superior" isn't the right translation.

The Quran's commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable.

it is mistakable,infact, it supports peace,and in the history of islam there is alot of piece treaties.
also do you know where the word islam comes from? it comes from salam,which means peace.

The Quran's commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet's career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation

well,this principle doesn't exist,you missunderstood 2:106.

also about mohamed part,their is an american film which talks about his life and in that film you will find that alot of what you typed is wrong(some of them are yes true,but alot are not).

So yeah, I think this debate has been conclusively won in favour of the "Islam wants you dead" side.

i know,hopefully my post will change it somehow.
i know you people may find it somehow biased,and somehow not believe me(well i am one guy here it seems),but if what you think about islam is true,why don't muslims do all the bad things you talk about???????

and about the jihad part:jihad doesn't mean "holly war" or"religious fighting,it means do your best at something,for example learning really hard for tests is jihad,doing your best at work is also jihad,etc...,and if there is war do you think you need to do your worst or best?

Dhimmis, the 'people of the Book' (Jews and Christians) who eventually may be allowed to live under an islamic apartheid-system, paying special (high) taxes (Jizya), not carry any weapon, not riding horses etc. Dhimmis must in every way behave subordinate to their islamic ruler, and dhimmitude it not a right, but a favour bestowed by the ruling class (muslims) and may eventually be revoked.

those taxes aren't their anymore,and we muslims so pay the zakat,which is given to poor people.
and now days a "visa"replaces all things,because it means an agreement to live their.
and we don't call them dhimmis,but people of the book is right

Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), who (according to the Quran) under islamic rule must either convert to islam or be killed.

explain the peace treaties that happened between the prophet mohamed and some of them.

#64 MT

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:25 PM

That's Me! You can talk all you want about how you are "100% sure" that these things aren't true, but it won't make any difference with your complete lack of sources or proof, compared to the others who have multiple direct quotes and links.
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#65 Banshee

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 07:03 PM

Námo's quotings are simply a translation/interpretation that someone we don't know had of Qu'ran. He could have used sources that want to prove that belicism and terrorism is part of Islam: in short, biased sources. It's just as biased as 'Thats me!' reply.

Every religion has many inconsistences, just like the laws of most countries (specially mine, Brazil). Each person interprets it or follow it in the way they prefer to do. There are many people who follow some of the teachings from Prophet in a peaceful way, skipping the bellicous part.

If you want, you'll find proof that all religions are evil and all are inconsistent. But nobody needs to follow the 100% of the teachings of the religion because, if they are inconsistent, it is impossible to be 100% orthodox. At some point, you'll end ignoring or distorting one or more teachings to live your own life.
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#66 Imagine

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 07:35 PM

Námo's quotings are simply a translation/interpretation that someone we don't know had of Qu'ran. He could have used sources that want to prove that belicism and terrorism is part of Islam: in short, biased sources. It's just as biased as 'Thats me!' reply.

Every religion has many inconsistences, just like the laws of most countries (specially mine, Brazil). Each person interprets it or follow it in the way they prefer to do. There are many people who follow some of the teachings from Prophet in a peaceful way, skipping the bellicous part.

If you want, you'll find proof that all religions are evil and all are inconsistent. But nobody needs to follow the 100% of the teachings of the religion because, if they are inconsistent, it is impossible to be 100% orthodox. At some point, you'll end ignoring or distorting one or more teachings to live your own life.


Thats probaby the best I've seen anyone put it to be honest well done..
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#67 Pasidon

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:13 PM

Who cares. Good guys always win anyway.

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#68 Allathar

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 09:32 PM

According to Islamic teaching, the Quran came down as a series of revelations from Allah through the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad, who then dictated it to his followers.


Yes, because those sources are really reliable if Allah dictated his word to Gabriel who told it to Muhammed who told it to his followers. No wonder stuff is so inconsistent and continuously changing...

Anyway, my theory is much more likely, that Muhammed sat down in that cave, ate some hallucion giving mushrooms, and waited for the revelations to come. Makes much more sense, doesn't it?
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#69 Námo

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:45 PM


Well ... don't give him the credit when it was snatched from WMD ...

True ... I just had an old file on my HD with various info on Islam, extracted from it and made a quick edit ... and having about a hundred links on Islam in my browser, I was too lazy to check from which source that info was taken ... I just knew it was reliable. Well, not very smart, as the subject is a rather sensible one, especially for the believers of Allah, who generally are opposed to ANY critique.

As for the source, it was not WMD (I didn't knew that one, so thanks for the links, gave me the clue to the original source) but this one:

Islam 101, by Gregory M. Davis on Jihad Watch.

Jihad Watch is a very reliable source of information on contemporary Islam. Robert Spencer speaks fluent arabic, and several islamic scholars have tried to question and refute his knowledge of the Quran, Ahadith and the Sira, but so far none have succeeded. Besides the daily news on Jihad Watch, he has commented all the Suras of the Quran in his Qur'an Commentary (including links to his commentary in Czech, Danish, German and Italian languages).

If anyone want to check the validity of the quotes from the Quran in my previous post, you'll find some other translations here:

University of Southern California: Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement
(two popular Muslim translations, those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, along with a third by M. H. Shakir)

Arabic Qur’an, with English translations

... do you know where the word islam comes from? it comes from salam, which means peace ...

Islam means "submission" ... and the suras of the Quran really are ordered according to the length of the individual sura, the longest first, except for the first sura "The opening", which muslims repeat several times a day ... strange that a buddhist should need to tell you such basic info.

Otherwise, I think your post speaks for itself, so I will not comment it further ... but just wish you a good and pleasant life. :)

------------

EDIT:

... for those who may remember all the polical turmoil in the wake of publishing Salman Rushdie's novel "The Satanic Verses" ... well, Salman Rusdie didn't make them up, so here's the link to the Quranic version: Sura 53, "The Star"


Edited by Námo, 08 March 2010 - 11:52 PM.

... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
... a star shines on the hour of our meeting ...
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#70 Beowulf

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 12:14 AM

Anyway, my theory is much more likely, that Muhammed sat down in that cave, ate some hallucion giving mushrooms, and waited for the revelations to come. Makes much more sense, doesn't it?

That's essentially any religion though. I mean seriously. Don't single out Islam.

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#71 olli

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 12:58 AM

Each to their own...

It's just that bashing Islam is so in fashion these days. It will be another religion in 50 years time; probably when the Hindu's and Buddhists wage full scale nuclear war on each other over whose is the most peaceful religion.

Imagine bashing Islam as Ugg boots and Abercrombie and Fitch (Or, more appropriately as I call it Slag-ercrombie and Bitch... or Analcrombe and Felch...Every fucker has this shite now days. I saw a man wearing Ugg boots. Furry ones. I wanted to punch him in the face. I came close to spitting at him.) Right now it's in fashion and everyone is doing it, but soon it will move into the confines of time never to be seen again. Soon Islam will be like Platform shoes gathering dust at the back of a wardrobe; one of the worse things to grace mankind and left to be forgotten. Not to mention that the fashion makes women look stupid. You decide which one I'm talking about.

Or you could liken Islam to Boy George; Was all the rage at the time but you cringe when you hear him mentioned or see him on television now.
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#72 Pasidon

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 01:02 AM

You said lots of stuff that I don't understand, but their women do look pretty stupid. And Ugg sounds stupid, so I'll take your word for that.

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#73 olli

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 01:08 AM

Come live in the UK for about 3 months and you'll get it all.

You must have the clothing brand Abercrombie and Fitch, and Hollister, and Jack Wills in the States? I thought it was all American crap!
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#74 Pasidon

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 01:17 AM

I dunno... I only wear dress pants from the 80's and brand-less t-shirts. American Eagle... that's about all I know. But we have the gators... those flimsy rubber sandles that make me want to throw snakes at people for wearing.

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#75 Vortigern

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 09:06 AM

Fucking crocs... Olli, I am entirely on your side here. Ugg boots should be punishable by fire, especially when the more, shall we say, homely women wear them with denim 'skirts' which closely resemble belts and leggings in place of trousers. When did that become the norm? However, I feel sure platform boots will make a comeback, though possibly only among vertically challenged folks. One of my guy friends is more than a foot shorter than me, and I keep trying to convince him to wear platforms, or at least cowboy boots with big heels. It'd make him taller than his girlfriend. Also:

It will be another religion in 50 years time; probably when the Hindu's and Buddhists wage full scale nuclear war on each other over whose is the most peaceful religion.

Hehehe. :)
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#76 Caspa

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:20 AM

Do not rag on denim mini skirts. I, for one, fucking love those things. Also Ugg boots definitely need to be dumped in a vat of acid, and those fucking leggings need to be set of fire and the ashes dumped into a vat of acid, just to be sure. Furthermore, the leggings and denim miniskirt trend can just fuck right off. Stick with just the denim mini and Caspa is a very happy man.
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#77 Romanul

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 01:06 PM

Let's hit Catholics next, I say.

Caspianity never died, its' God just got bored.
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...including Orthodox side? :0

#78 Allathar

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 01:43 PM

At least you guys over the pond don't have brand boxershorts that cost a gazillion dollars. Of course, since you want everyone to see that you're wearing one, you drop your pants 'til about 3/4 down your ass so everyone can see it. Myself, I can't really be arsed to pay 20 euros for a piece of cloth that catches your farts.
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#79 Pasidon

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 04:53 PM

or at least cowboy boots with big heels.

Seems I'm set for future fashion changes since I'm wearing some right now.

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#80 Vortigern

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 05:02 PM

Just to clarify, Caspa, I too am quite a fan of denim miniskirts, just not when they're being worn with leggings. They're very much a hit-and-miss kind of fashion. Then again, I was always more of a fan of well-fitting jeans. I walked most of the way to my lecture this morning a few paces behind a particularly fine example.
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