114 replies to this topic

[Pasidon]

Interesting fun thing is that underground medical facilities are becoming more popular this year. Don't hear about them too much in the news, but I've met a few guys who've got treatment down in Mississippi just to avoid the recent Med-Mumbo. One got a prosthetic heart valve in some basement in an apartment complex, so I bet myself people will start turning to the Medical Black Market. They're making their way up from South America and probably in a few other civilized parts of Dustland.

Enemy Romanul used Poe's Law!

It's not very effective...

Puppeteer is confused.

Puppeteer used Moral Authority.

Puppeteer hurt itself in it's confusion.

Uh-oh! PUPPETEER is evolving!

*Da... da... da... da... da... da-da... da... da... da... da... da-da...*

PUPPEREER has become A FREEMASON! *Da-da-da... da-da-da da da da da da-da-da!*

[duke_Qa]

And funnily, what duke stated hasn't really happened here. Public hospitals still outnumber private clinics and for everything short of plastic surgery I'd actually trust the big public hospitals to have the better doctors. However, I've heard that if you have advanced health insurance, they let you jump the queue in non-essential cases.

Well I'm not against it in small doses, Norway also has plenty of people paying for health-insurance on top of the public deal. But it rarely is used for going to private hospitals or clinics for anything, more like economic support for lost work and consultants and lawyers to make sure you are being treated correctly/Right hospital with the best competence on your illness.

But if private insurances was meant to pay for vital surgeries and the likes, then you are down into a cesspool you don't want to be in.

[Hostile]

But if private insurances was meant to pay for vital surgeries and the likes, then you are down into a cesspool you don't want to be in.

Explain this part because I don't understand. It works perfectly fine in the US.

[Elvenlord]

Depends on your definition of fine, I suppose.

[Hostile]

Have you had issues with an insurance company not paying for vital surgeries? This is what I'm asking to be defined. The US has some of the best doctors and health care in the world and most of it is paid for by private insurance companies from premiums paid by people.

No one can say the US has shitty medical service. The issue lies between the government, insurance companies, and people on controlling the escalating price of medical service. The service itself is very good.

[Ash]

It may be good, but it's no good to anyone if they cannot afford it.

To re-iterate - I would have been dead if I'd got hit by a car in the US and needed medical attention.

Either I would have been left at the roadside to bleed internally until I actually ran out of blood to power my vital organs, or I would have been bled white by your sham of a healthcare system which would have probably had me imprisoned or something for being unable to pay the god-knows-how-many-thousands it would've gost to cut my spleen out and sew me back together again.

"But NHS don't use the latest-and-greatest" I hear thou cry. No, 'tis true, because it is admittedly run on a cost-effectiveness system (and I'm sure to an extent the private insurance business is - they're not going to pay out for a really expensive treatment if the cheaper option will suffice). But it's not like we're being subjected to fucking trephination. The treatments are effective and they're available. The government might tread on toes saying "oh you need to prevent bed-blocking and improve turnover times" but that's not unlike any other public-sector item. Or, indeed, any target-led private-sector enterprise. I'm sure the insurance companies are anxious to get their clients back out of hospital as it's cheaper for them and they get to charge the cocks off their clients but not pay out.

Tell me how, exactly, this is a bad system. It works, and it has done since it first came to be in 1948. Clearly the US system doesn't work, or else there wouldn't have been clamour for healthcare reform since long before Obama ever even ran for President. Sure, you might not like the way he's going about it, but he's trying to do that for you. I personally would sooner pay into a government insurance scheme than a private one. Why? Because governments, for all their ills, are (generally) accountable and not quite so profit-oriented as a faceless megaconglomerate whose sole objective is to rake in as much as possible while paying out as little as possible.

I honestly do believe that in five years' time - assuming the bill actually gets the chance to have any effect - Americans will wonder how they ever did without it. All that toss that Pasidon was on about "it'll cost less so it'll cost more" makes absolutely no fucking sense. No insurance premium + a bit of extra tax. Swings and roundabouts as we Northerners call it. And if a few people are a bit worse off a year because they weren't paying anything for healthcare before, there'll be a ways and a means that that is offset. Probably higher wages or a requirement that healthcare plan be built into the conditions (I believe that was part of Obama's bill, which makes sense - the UK are presently adopting a similar policy with regards pension schemes, which admittedly if anyone has a working brain they'll opt out of as private-sector pensions aren't worth the paper they're written on, but the principle is sound).

And you can hardly blame Obama if American wages are so abysmally shit that they can't afford to pay to keep themselves well and healthy. British wages are shit, admittedly, but at least we don't have to worry about the health problem.

[duke_Qa]

To re-iterate - I would have been dead if I'd got hit by a car in the US and needed medical attention.

Sorry for the intrusion, but as far as I know most western countries with public healthcare automatically pay for any hospitalization in the States. It's like "he ain't an American? OH SHIT GET HIM TO THE OPERATING TABLE NAOW!". If you didn't have any ID on you on the other hand, that might be more troublesome.

Explain this part because I don't understand. It works perfectly fine in the US.

Having the stance that life-saving surgeries is a citizen right and not a monetary right is quite vital to any proper healthcare.
How happy would you be if your insurance company did their best to not pay you for a life-saving surgery? It works perfectly fine as long as you get what you are asking for, but there's always the chance that some bureaucrat thinks "This guy's expensive, lets filibuster him for a month and see if he still lives".
Now you might say "but the government can do that as well". Well they could, but since the government have to worry about elections and looking good. Private insurance companies usually don't have any election or public influence over their positions unless you have a share in their company... which I assume most health-insurances does not give to you.

A Governmental organization is ultimately under the control of the voters, thus they should always do their best to please the voters and not the board members.

[Hostile]

To re-iterate - I would have been dead if I'd got hit by a car in the US and needed medical attention.

A prime example of someone who has never stepped foot in an American hospital.

ANYONE with a life threatening issue can walk into the emergency room at ANY hospital and be taken care of or picked up by an ambulance. You know this is why there is an issue whith illegal imigrants knowing this, they simply show up at any emergency room and get healthcare, even for simply colds/flu. Than they never bother to pay the bill. Because they have no credit rating or address to send the bill to.

This is a clear cut example of someone talking about something they have no clue or business talking about because they have no clue.

Please return your presence to the "no clue room" located down the hall and on your LEFT. Take a number, stand in line, and STFU.

[Elvenlord]

Either I would have been left at the roadside to bleed internally until I actually ran out of blood to power my vital organs, or I would have been bled white by your sham of a healthcare system which would have probably had me imprisoned or something for being unable to pay the god-knows-how-many-thousands it would've gost to cut my spleen out and sew me back together again.

There you go. Read the whole thing please.

[Hostile]

Either I would have been left at the roadside to bleed internally until I actually ran out of blood to power my vital organs, or I would have been bled white by your sham of a healthcare system which would have probably had me imprisoned or something for being unable to pay the god-knows-how-many-thousands it would've gost to cut my spleen out and sew me back together again.

There you go. Read the whole thing please.

If you don't like our healthcare system, than move out of our nation. No one in the US gets imprisoned for debt. There is no such thing as going to prision for debt in the US. Even if you owe THOUSANDS because of debt due to the hospital, you can always claim bankruptcy. So what is your question again?

Lies based on lies that were devired from lies...

[Mathijs]

If you don't like our healthcare system, than move out of our nation.

"Don't like it? Leave!" - The last refuge of a man with no further arguments.

Seriously man, that last post there really defined both your lack of actual understanding of the situation, and frankly, your skill in debate. Pathetic display.

Edited by Matias, 15 November 2010 - 06:25 PM.

[Elvenlord]

Either I would have been left at the roadside to bleed internally until I actually ran out of blood to power my vital organs, or I would have been bled white by your sham of a healthcare system which would have probably had me imprisoned or something for being unable to pay the god-knows-how-many-thousands it would've gost to cut my spleen out and sew me back together again.

There you go. Read the whole thing please.

If you don't like our healthcare system, than move out of our nation. No one in the US gets imprisoned for debt. There is no such thing as going to prision for debt in the US. Even if you owe THOUSANDS because of debt due to the hospital, you can always claim bankruptcy. So what is your question again?

Lies based on lies that were devired from lies...

I was referring to you only answering the first part by answering more or less with the second part of Ash's quote.

ANYONE with a life threatening issue can walk into the emergency room at ANY hospital and be taken care of or picked up by an ambulance. You know this is why there is an issue whith illegal imigrants knowing this, they simply show up at any emergency room and get healthcare, even for simply colds/flu. Than they never bother to pay the bill. Because they have no credit rating or address to send the bill to.

That's basically what he said, minus the immigrants, either he would not get treated or get treated and have to pay thousands to cover it. Or go bankrupt. Awesome choices.

[Romanul]

Well, I CBA to read all the text.

Seems I was wrong with that insurance thing.

Anyways, was thinking tho...would it be possible to make the hospitals and emergency services (state ones I mean) into one big company then make it public-private partnership? Like, 40% private companies - profit IF they support with medical equipment and shit - and 60% state - so that it won't be the private companies doing what they want.

[duke_Qa]

Most of the businesses the government have their hands in up here have multiple owners, with the government usually keeping their share around 20-40% if its pretty important to the nation but works better with less intervention, and 50-90% in those that are nothing but red numbers but vital to society(Or very big cash-cows like the oil businesses, good to know we got a future retirement fund). Healthcare and support for the elderlies being 30-40% of the national budget expenses.

Our government usually buy into growing businesses if they see it as a profit for the public or for the government's income. It's not much more different than a private investor except that they have to worry about voters.

[Ash]

Please return your presence to the "no clue room" located down the hall and on your LEFT. Take a number, stand in line, and STFU.

And if you had actually bothered to read my post before spewing a bigoted and utterly repugnantly callous retort (complete with unnecessary trolling, reproduced above), you'd have realised that you really didn't have a way to turn with it.

I'm not even talking about migrants - if I was a holidaymaker in the US and got skittled I'd be just as fucked. And to be honest, being up to my eyeballs in debt or bankrupt (you were talking about credit rating? Well, yeah. Bang goes any sort of one that way too o_0 ) is scarcely a better option than being dead. Are you seriously telling me there's really a choice there, or rather - a good option?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

There's always a better choice; being alive AND debt free! How about that, huh? Who'd have thought that you could be both!? Well, good news sports fans, you CAN! Just stop being a blinkered, narrow-minded failbear and think beyond selfishness for a moment.

Now please return your presence to the "ignorant bigot room", located down the hall on the RIGHT. Take a number, stand in line, and GTFO.