114 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

Honestly I think the word "progressive" is an oxymoron. There's nothing progessive about creating a larger government and demanding people submit to such a beast when it is as flawed as people are simply because it's ran by people. America is not ending up like a muslim nation. Stop trying to pass your brainwashing onto the "States." We simply don't want a socialist government. If you don't like it than don't bother us. Why not go tell Japan about their evil capitalist ways. They are the worlds 2nd largest economy.

Life is an oxymoron. Change is good and bad most of the time, but no change is worse. I don't really care what America does as long as it does something. Find your own answers but don't get stuck in a rut, where huge lobbies are doing their best to keep the status quo the way it is because they are unnecessary middlemen that would get the boot-end of a reform.
The healthcare reform is without doubt going to give you an "American" healthcare system. Also, I doubt it will cause the government to inflate. Medical care has very few opinions on how a nation should run. And as has been said, with a proper reform the money spent on healthcare WILL be more effective than what it is today. It's a future investment in my opinion.


On the topic of America ending up like a muslim nation, It is the way of all great empires. Days of glory are hard to forget once you are digging around in the mud for some good dirt. I can't say if this is something that will happen within 20 or a hundred years, but one day it is likely to happen if you aren't CAREFUL and ahead of the competition. Hubris and all that.



On the topic of Japan, capitalistic system perhaps, but also the nation with the greatest national depth, over twice as large as USA's per capita. Also has the greatest public retirement fund in the world, a very socialistic thing to have. But It also has a public health-care system, one of the best in the world. 70% of their medical cost are paid by the government.
And on that topic, if I want an hour at the doctor here, I quickly have to pay 30-60$ in administrative fees, but if it was private that would probably be minimum 1000$. There are extra, private insurances. Anyone can buy those in case they fear for their children and spouse's economic situation in case of an chronic disease or early death.
Even in a nation with a bigger public healthcare system, there will be private buffs and bonuses for those that can pay

Edited by duke_Qa, 05 March 2010 - 03:03 PM.

[Allathar]

I prefer no change above bad change anytime, tyvm.

[Pasidon]

Well this just in to you Obama lovers out there, Obama sent a message to elected democrats yesterday since they're all worried about loosing their jobs over this crap. Well that's nice, but what he said was a bit disturbing. "The voters will put their anger behind them this next election and keep us in office." In other words, "Don’t take voters seriously…we know what’s best for them and they won’t hold us accountable.”

[Vortigern]

I think you may have misinterpreted his meaning there, Pasi. It's just possible he meant "The people will forgive us for spending their money now because it'll benefit them in the long run, and then they'll vote for me again."

[Pasidon]

You really love this guy... wow...

[Allathar]

And you guys only love Obama because he's black. If he was a middle-aged white male, everyone would just hate him for his bad plans and his unaffordable spendings.

[Pasidon]

That's right Allathar. If it was Bush, people would love to bash him, though Bush was no where near as unethical as Obama.

[Puppeteer]

You should really actually LIVE in the US before you make the claims you do.

For someone who constantly quotes the indignant, insular argument of 'you don't live here YOU WOULDN'T KNOW you can't help us', you're rather quick to decry our Soviet ways with our deathly health services and decaying economic/imperial power.
In any case, have you not heard of the internet? We're all able to find out about the promises/policies, undiluted by the national newspapers' political standings (or the TV's rot).

I think you may have misinterpreted his meaning there, Pasi. It's just possible he meant "The people will forgive us for spending their money now because it'll benefit them in the long run, and then they'll vote for me again."

It seems we had such a speech 51 years ago with Aneurin Bevan, though more cynical and less about gaining votes; my oh my, America are slow. I believe this is it:
http://www.theyworkf...3a.860.1#g860.7

[Vortigern]

I have no particular love for Obama, but you seem to have a largely unfounded dislike of him. OK, he's pledged some spending, and maybe that's not the best idea for a country with such a colossal national debt, but at least he's trying something. Oh, and I don't give a shit that he's black. It makes absolutely no difference to his policies, and that should be how you judge a politician. By the way, if Obama were a middle-aged white male, he never would have got in. The Democrat vote would have gone to Hillary because a white man just doesn't pull in those minorities, like women...?

Now that I've said that, I will say this: I fully support a nationalised health service. I think it's brilliant, and without one I would now be walking with a severe limp and probably only with the aid of a stick or a crutch. When I was 4, my mum wasn't working because she was looking after me and my little brother and my dad had just been laid off because the company he worked for went under. In America, this would have meant we'd have had no health insurance, because God knows we were not well off back then. I had an accident and ripped a chunk of flesh out of my right knee and cracked my kneecap in half. The NHS stitched me up for free and I recovered completely. I consider this a GOOD THING.

While I'm here, I'd like to add to my previous post; I really have no idea how you arrived at that interpretation of Obama's words. Honestly, I can't see any sense in your version at all. My best guess is you've superimposed what you'd like him to be saying on top of what he is actually saying and are now hoping nobody will notice that you are, frankly, full of shit.

[Pasidon]

If you really think Obama cares about people, then I can't fathom why. People have voted his dumb healthcare out of life and he's poking us with a stick saying, "Let's force this thing on people even though they don't want it." And now he's saying, "People will just drop their feelings on me and vote the people who are forcing this healthcare on them back." They are so worried about their jobs, their power, they forget that they are burning the constitution just to get what THEY want. "Oh... as long as he's trying something, and oh... universal healthcare is such a good idea and..." No, that's not it. Like Allathar said, I rather him be doing nothing than forcing this on us. There is more than bad ways to get us bad universal healthcare, like good ways to get good universal healthcare. And he and his team of power starving radicals are ignoring good ideas because it won't give them the upper hand, and they are WAY to petty to give a republican credit when the Democrats own everything at the moment. But they're even ignoring some democrats and Obama and his gang are peeing them-selfs silly since there are actually democrats out there who come up with ideas that would help people besides control them as much as possible.

But not an American here likes it, and reversed for the non-Americans. That tells me something.

[duke_Qa]

Please define bad universal healthcare vs good universal healthcare. remember, universal/public has to be a part of both definitions.

Obama is a proper politician, he is willing to do UNPOPULAR reforms, even though they put him in a political shit-storm. Other politicians would just turn their cloak with the wind and go with that, like bush did with 9/11. Obama is a guy that has balls to set the agenda and not be a pawn of chance.

Edited by duke_Qa, 06 March 2010 - 03:48 PM.

[Allathar]

I'm sorry, since when does doing unpopular things that the people obviously don't want, let alone the government can afford in this bad economic times make you a good president? It rather makes him a jackass moron who doesn't give a shit about the opposition and just thinks 'fuck them, I'm going to push this plan through at all costs'.

[Pasidon]

I don't think people understand that the majority of the United States Citizens voted ObamaCare off. This means WE DON'T WANT IT. Meaning DON'T FORCE US TO HAVE IT.

Other politicians would just turn their cloak with the wind and go with that, like bush did with 9/11.

I knew the Bush bashing was coming up. This just proves you don't actually look into these things and just rant on about someone you know people wouldn't like, so they just might agree with you. I'd tell you to prove that statement, but I already know it's media influenced bull crap.

[Puppeteer]

Meaning DON'T FORCE US TO HAVE IT.

It's called protection of the poor. Or, more generally, the protection and welfare of a minority against an apathetic, selfish majority.
In other words, who gives a fuck if you don't want it? You might be a happy little reactionary in your status quo bubble but quite frankly other people need help, and God knows it's not going to come from the Republican 'I'm alright' mentality.
Obama should push this through all the way. Ignore the selfishness of direct democracy.

Edited by Puppeteer, 07 March 2010 - 03:20 PM.

[Pasidon]

He he he... the poor are the ones who are untimatly getting screwed in this. I would know, I am poor. Obama keeps claiming the rich are evil brutes who can't be trusted to give to charity, so he taxes people more if they have more money. The little secret is that the more other people are paying, the more you pay. My premiums will skyrocket if this crap happens, and I don't even want healthcare yet I won't have a choice.

[Bart]

I don't think people understand that the majority of the United States Citizens voted ObamaCare off. This means WE DON'T WANT IT. Meaning DON'T FORCE US TO HAVE IT.

Then why did they vote for him?

And I think the following applies, as it does to many things in life (replace customer with people in this case):

Henry Ford is credited with saying something along the lines of “If I’d asked people what they wanted, they’d have said ‘faster horses’ “. That particular quotation gets trotted out fairly religiously every time the issue of the innovator’s dilemma comes up, helping to point out the apparent perils of listening to the customer.

[Pasidon]

Well we want our current horse to be smarter, not faster.

I don't think people understand that the majority of the United States Citizens voted ObamaCare off. This means WE DON'T WANT IT. Meaning DON'T FORCE US TO HAVE IT.

Then why did they vote for him?

You know... I ask myself this every night before I scrape the bird crap off my window. But the answer is obvious: people are stupid. And I'll give a hunk of blame to the media for flashing his fancy "Change will happen" quotes instead of good facts. McCain wasn't my favorite guy either, but I can't say this would of been avoided. Guess we'll never know.

[Námo]

... I'll give a hunk of blame to the media for flashing his fancy "Change will happen" quotes instead of good facts. ...

I think that's a HUGE understatement. The internet was indeed full of alarming facts on this 'Hope Boy', but it seems that the bulk of mainstream media (with the exception of Fox News and a few newspapers) had decided to ignore these completely, to the degree that they became part of the democratic electoral propaganda ... maybe partly in fear of being labeled 'racist' - although the 'race card' was played repeatedly, but only by the democrats.

[Allathar]

Obama should push this through all the way. Ignore the selfishness of consensus democracy.

You do know that's the first step towards a dictatorship right? Obama may genuinely believe that his plans are for the better of everyone, but that doesn't give him a right to ignore democracy and push his plans all the way through. Dictatorships usually start out this way, with an elected president, who eventually says 'fuck democracy, I know how it really should be done, trust me'. Like the saying goes, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

[Bart]

You do know that's the first step towards a dictatorship right? Obama may genuinely believe that his plans are for the better of everyone, but that doesn't give him a right to ignore democracy and push his plans all the way through.

As long as he's not breaking the constitution by not having elections after his term, he's not ignoring democracy.