114 replies to this topic

[Puppeteer]

You do know that's the first step towards a dictatorship right? Obama may genuinely believe that his plans are for the better of everyone, but that doesn't give him a right to ignore democracy and push his plans all the way through. Dictatorships usually start out this way, with an elected president, who eventually says 'fuck democracy, I know how it really should be done, trust me'. Like the saying goes, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Except democracy has many variants. I'm saying ignore direct democracy - you know, majority suppresses minorities and public opinion rules? Like Switzerland, which enabled the banning of minarets (with only a approx. 10% lead). There are other forms - the US would still be a democracy, because the people voted him in and will be able to vote him out, as he won't be able to change the constitution to prevent that from happening. In other words, stop being foolish and scaremongering.

And I'll give a hunk of blame to the media for flashing his fancy "Change will happen" quotes instead of good facts. McCain wasn't my favorite guy either, but I can't say this would of been avoided. Guess we'll never know.

Agreed, actually - I was against the whole electoral campaign system right from the off. As I am against our current electoral campaigning (mainly/solely by Cameron). If any Britain gets the opportunity, watch last Wednesday's Question Time. Baroness William, a perfect individual , gave a nice summation of why executive figures aren't right for our country and she mourns the diminishing role of the cabinet. It should apply elsewhere, too - that's why I'm against the concept of a president (and the general trend of personality over politics). Plus you should watch it because Boris Johnson and Carol Vorderman were incredibly rude, and Lord Adonis was so meek. And Will Self poked fun whenever he could. And David Dimbleby is the epitome of awesome.

Edited by Puppeteer, 07 March 2010 - 03:19 PM.

[Námo]

As long as he's not breaking the constitution by not having elections after his term, he's not ignoring democracy.

Barack Hussein Obama has already shown disrespect for the constitution on at least two occasions, before his election to president:

In regard to refusing to producing his COLB (Certificate of Live Birth) making him eligible for the office as President of US - the ongoing farce concerning his COLB is a complete mystery, at least if he has a valid COLB.

On his first visit to Iraq (not yet elected) he tried to convince the Iraqi Government to reject the agreement between the US and Iraqi governments concerning the withdrawal of US troops. As he was Member of Congress at that time, this simply amounts to treason; wisely the Iraqi Government stated, that this would postpone the actual withdrawal of US troops with about three years.

Edited by Námo, 07 March 2010 - 11:17 PM.

[duke_Qa]

As long as he's not breaking the constitution by not having elections after his term, he's not ignoring democracy.

Hussein Obama[...]

Thats where my bullshit-meter hit the don't-care button. Almost a new record

Obama got voted in, he has 4 years where he can try to get whatever laws and reforms he wants passed. Naturally with a ludicrous two-party system and a bitter conservative republican side, there's not many hopes of getting any help with that. Thus he has to fight with nail and claw to get anything done. Thats the gist of it.

[Pasidon]

Eh em.... he has until November. The media is taking heat for their biased electoral coverage, so I do hope they'll butt out of this next election. What's next? "President Obama President Obama has discovered his race is actually Mexican. We encourage Mexican voters to re-elect him now."

Plus you should watch it because Boris Johnson and Carol Vorderman were incredibly rude

I love it when things go right on live television. Where can I watch this Britannia campaign?

[Námo]

Hussein Obama [...]

Thats where my bullshit-meter hit the don't-care button. Almost a new record

Thanks a lot for the compliment ... yes, I am an old provo from the now deceased anti-authoritarian left of the sixties, can't help it (don't want to, either).

The use of the president's middle name was just a reference to the hilarious ongoing story of his COLB, but for your comfort I've changed it to his full name in the previous post.

[Mathijs]

Provo! Fuck yeah!

[Pasidon]

Oh, we're still allowed to use Pravo on people.

[Beowulf]

Anytime I see anarchism involved with any political movement, they're automatically full of shit. Period.

Anyway, since the anti-universal healthcare bunch sounds suspiciously just anti-socialism, I'll leave this here.

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[Pasidon]

Well that little slip with ObamaCare would just say, "And after I recked my NHTSA car, the randomly employed doctors removed my universally insured leg because a federal agent told them to."

Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 08 March 2010 - 01:03 AM.

[Beowulf]

You don't even know how it would even work since... it's not even in place yet! You automatically assume the worst, but then again, I expect that from you.

[Pasidon]

Neh... if I assume the best, then I'd be lying. But a federal agent would be responsible for cutting my leg off if the situation arose, that I do know.

[Vortigern]

I'm confused. What do you think a federal agent would want with your leg? And why do you think any federal agent would overrule professional doctors on medical opinion? And I'm pretty sure doctors wouldn't be "randomly employed"; there'd still be all the training and interning and whatever, so really you're just making even less sense than usual. Good job.

[Devon]

That attachment made my day Fen

[Elvenlord]

Well that little slip with ObamaCare would just say, "And after I recked my NHTSA car, the randomly employed doctors removed my universally insured leg because a federal agent told them to."

Cause the doctor cutting off the wrong leg never happens now...

[Pasidon]

See Vort? You admit that idea makes no sense. Now imagine if a simple case of chicken pox came up and you went to the doctor, and you couldn't be treated yet. The doctor confirms the diagnosis, and after that he faxes a request to an agent standing by in a metal box somewhere in Washington DC. He faxes the doctor back denying treatment because "He's not viable for chicken pox treatment at this time." So the doctor is helpless and tells the patient to hit the road and come in a week.

What just happened? A patient got booted because there's a waiting list. With ObamaCare in place, there will be so many people without restricted healthcare, there are now waiting lists to be treated. That's right, that ridiculous idea is that jewel of a plan that you're saying Obama should be forcing on us. If you're paying more than the average citizen, there's a horrible looking deal that you're eligible to take, making you pay a few extra dimes to get treated right away. People with brain cancer who are about to find out they have it will be waiting in a mile long line behind people with minor infections and colds. Even when they get looked at, they have to wait in line for an MRI. Like I said, the more other people are paying your healthcare for you, the worse it'll be. It's easy to support this bill if it's not going to negatively effect you.

http://article.natio...e/thomas-sowell
-Thomas Sowell explains the crisis with this 'Rationing' in medical care that would take place. There's a second page too that I missed the first time.

Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 08 March 2010 - 02:00 AM.

[Nertea]

Can I get a summary of how the changes the Democrats want to introduce actually work? I'd be interested in comparing them to mine.

Here's how it goes in Canada:

-I pay my MSP (medical services plan) fee to the provincial level government. The fee is something like $40 a month as standard, but decreases depending on your dependants and you income level (as I'm poor, I actually pay nothing). This gets me a care card number, which I bring with me to any health-related service when I need it.
-If the service is covered by the MSP (generally means hospital care, GP visits, and a number of other things), I pay nothing. If it isn't covered (most prescription meds, massage therapy, etc), I will get billed for it, but all essential services are free. Except ambulance fees, apparently, though I've never needed that (so far)
-These additional services are subject to a second tier: private insurers, which work like any other medical insurance. You pay monthy fee. You get compensated for dental, meds, chiropractor vists and the like.

The waiting list issue as mentioned above exists, certainly. It exists anywhere demand for services exceeds supply, right? The thing is, docs in the US make SO MUCH MORE money that our people tend to head down south after a few years in Canada, which is a good chunk of the problem right there. If we normalized both systems, it would be interesting to see how the dynamics of this might change.

The issue of waiting lists has honestly NEVER come up for me or anyone I know, and it is never for essential services. Sure, I should call my GP a few days ahead to book an appointment (that's actually a completely different issue related to GP shortages both in the US as well as Canada these days). I hear this occurs primarily for elective surgeries, things like hip replacements. As far as I understand it, the only reason that the US doesn't have waiting list issues is that pay-as-you-go healthcare allows you to inflict the supply/demand model on anything. If there is a shortage of MRI techs or machines, the price of such a scan can be increased, thus decreasing the demand. Problem solved. Of course, the people with insufficient insurance or money on hand to pay are then royally screwed. Stats seem to show that the mere existance of waiting lists doesn't lead to more death either, comparing... US: death rate 8.38/1000, Canada: 7.74/1000.

I mean, I can see the argument against it in a vague way. If you pay any money, you want to see results from that money - if you pay and have to wait, you're not seeing immediate results. Your pay is indirectly helping people other than you get care, so... yeah. The counter argument for that is of course that if such a situation occurs, chances are that down the line at some point when you're a cranky old man, you'll be getting your elective hip replacement funded by someone who is waiting for theirs.

It's just far too socially responsible for the Republican mode of though to wrap their minds around .

[Pasidon]

I've researched the Canadian healthcare system, and you give it far less credit than what it deserves Nert. That Medical Service Plan you're paying is something we should get started here since it doesn't burn every medical insurance company to the ground; allowing thous "Heartless fiends" as Obama puts it so well, to keep their jobs and have a better practical use managing a medical service plan. It won't make your premiums go up much either, I've seen. But ObamaCare will make other institutions pay for us... that's just bullying good, finacialy prosperous companies.

And sure... the waiting lines is something every nation has but never makes an issue as long as you're not a 3rd world country. But as loose as ObamaCare makes everything, people will be rushing in on the smallest things and it will back hospitals up. Federal mandates are already bad, so I can't imagine how bad they'll be. Well with more people wanting more care, they can't afford to shutdown hospitals, so someone else will have to be paying even more.

And doctors do make lots of money here. They did spend a good deal of their lives in medical school, so why not. But their salaries will be cut inhumanly with ObamaCare. Probably not worth in being a doctor after what Obama wants to do to the noble profession that he has out-right bashed since he's been in office. I can't imagine how many jobs will be lost if Obama wins... or how many good people who earn their money get bankrupted because their ability to give to charity is dead zero for Obama... I've already lost my home over this guy, so I don't think his judgement in big ideas will end that much better.

[Nertea]

Oh, I give our system a lot of credit, I just take it for granted And y'know, in true Canadian form I'd rather play down the things I like about the place I live.

It would be nice if you'd throw in a nice concise description on how Obama's plan works to substantiate your arguments.

[Vortigern]

Over here, Pasi, you don't go into the hospital for every little niggle. You make an appointment to see your GP and head down to their office, and if it's nothing they send you home or to the pharmacy, and if it's something, they send you to the hospital. You don't show up in the OR saying "My back's kinda twingeing, I don't think I should be at work for the next couple of days."

Also, yes, I too would appreciate a full and concise summary of Obama's plan. I haven't really looked it over, I've just been saying that the British NHS is one of the very few remaining features which I find appealing about living in this country.

[Mathijs]

The evil communist ''European'' health care system, in this case the Dutch version, is pretty much the same as the Canadian one.