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#1 Pasidon

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 11:43 PM

Part 1 of Fina:
Part 2 of Fina: http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

This video is great... it shows you what Islam stands for without slandering or giving opinionated propaganda against Islam. All it does is quote from the Koran, show news paper clippings, and Islamic revolutions.

Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 10 June 2010 - 11:53 PM.


#2 Námo

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 07:36 AM


Above links require login on Youtube. This is a direct link:

http://www.jihadwatc...e-is-fitna.html

The movie IS accurate. One can wonder, why all the political correct multiculturalists are outraged by it?

Pat Condell on Fitna:

Just one of the hilarious reactions, before the movie was released: the Dutch Prime Minister Balkenende tried to get the movie banned, at a time when it was not known if it even existed; this probably was a blatant breach of the Dutch Constitution.


Edited by Námo, 11 June 2010 - 07:37 AM.

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#3 Allathar

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 09:51 AM

Even better, in the recent elections Wilders (the one who made this video) became the third biggest party in the parliament (after the liberals and socialists). The political correct parties (read: socialist hypocrites) now try to exclude him from entering a coalition, because Wilders wants to exclude radical Islam from the Dutch society. They say you shouldn't exclude people... Even though they are now willingly trying to exclude the huge number of people who voted for him from having a say in the politics. Irony, huh? Anyway, I'm hoping for a coalition between him, the liberals and the christian-democrats.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#4 Phil

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 05:50 PM

This video is great... it shows you what Islam stands for without slandering or giving opinionated propaganda against Islam. All it does is quote from the Koran, show news paper clippings, and Islamic revolutions.

Are you kidding me? This is first class propaganda material. It takes random quotations of the Qur’an, completely and entirely out of context, and combines them with pictures of 9/11. That's so low it doesn't even deserve to be called opinion.

What's up with the current Islam-hating anyway? Seems to be a big fad recently (in my country too, the idiots even banned minarets. Minarets! The ridiculous little towers!). I call hypocrisy on most of the West. At least have the decency to criticise Islam for what it is: a 1500 year old cult around a story that is exactly the same as all the other dumb stories (Judaism and Christianity anyone?).
People are missing the point so much it's not even funny anymore. Islam is not the problem (well, not more than most other religions). It's the stupid religious right-wing radical people who flock to anyone who shouts hateful chants loud enough and believe whatever they are being told. Ironically, many people who are so outspokenly against Islam are exactly the same, except that they stand on the other side of the fence. That's counting conservative Christians, conservative Jews and other conservative right-wingers.

Worst of all, those people don't even understand that what they are doing by discriminating Muslims - and not just the radical ones, mind you - is in fact strengthening the extremists on the other side. Although I bet some are smart enough to realise this and do it on purpose so they themselves can get more support from their side. I wonder when people will wake up to realise that old books and concepts aren't dangerous but that poverty, instability, lack of education, discrimination, lack of opportunities, extremism and narrow-mindedness in general, are.

I must say I'm looking forward to this debate here, as we seem to have so many anti-Islam people around.

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#5 Mathijs

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 06:38 PM

I've got your back, ol' chap.

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#6 Hostile

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 10:45 PM

I've got your back, ol' chap.

Does that mean you'll be defending muslim actions and beliefs? Just curious...

#7 Mathijs

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Posted 11 June 2010 - 10:50 PM

No, I never defend religion. I won't defend mindless following of other propaganda either, though. Not a fan of ignorance, regardless of its color.

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#8 Thats me!

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:57 AM

well said phil,the proplem is never the Islam(or any religion for that matter),but the people who misuse and misunderstand the religion(s) are the real proplem

#9 Bart

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:05 PM

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#10 Allathar

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 01:48 PM

Bart, do you seriously believe that?! The PVV has nothing to do with racism and discrimination, they only want to stop the Islam from further sucking away our culture, and I agree with that. The last years have been downright frustrating - lots and lots of immigrants who have no chance whatsoever to build a future here were permitted to enter the country anyway, costing billions of euros which should've been spent on education or healthcare. The children of the immigrants are now terrorizing the streets. In the big cities, elder people are afraid to go out of their houses at night. Worst of all, if you even try to say something about these huge problems, you're labeled as a racist, like you're doing right now.

The political correct elite sees some of these problems too, but they try to ignore it, thinking it's not that big of a deal. They try to understand the other cultures, try to adapt to them. Horribly wrong in my opinion - if an immigrant wants to live in this country, it's okay, but then he has to adapt to our rules and our culture, not the other way around! And the punishments for the crimes committed by the islam youth are also a joke - task punishments have become a sort of status symbol for them now.

This whole immigration industry costs 7.2 billion euros a year. 7.2 billion euros! And at the same time the political correct parties want to cut in the budget for healthcare and education, and raise the taxes so they can redirect the money of common working man to the benefits of some hopeless immigrant...

Imo, there are a couple of things that need to be done very fast to get this country back on track:
- close the borders for all immigrants who have no chance to build a future here whatsoever
- force immigrants to learn the Dutch language and adapt to our culture. If they don't do that, goodbye.
- stop the political correct bullshit, and instead admit the problems of the multicultural society and work on real solutions
- raise the punishments. Right now you get to clean the park for a couple of hours for violently abusing someone.
- immigrants who go into major crime or violence, have to leave the country immediately.
- stop the islamisation of the country. Close Islamitic schools - they make the integration and adaptation of immigrant children to our culture very difficult. The islamitic youth needs to go to common, Dutch schools.

Which is basically what Wilders and the PVV also wants. Really, I don't see where I'm being racist here.

By the way, I didn't vote for the PVV (instead on VVD, which is the liberal capitalist party), but when watching the debates I found myself very often agreeing with Wilders. Can't say it enough - 7.2 billion on the immigration industry, and at the same time cutting in the budget for healthcare and education...
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#11 Puppeteer

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 02:15 PM

but then he has to adapt to... our culture,

Since when did culture become dogma? Culture adapts to the people, not the other way round.

I don't know my views on immigration any more. It's such a big issue, which makes it unimportant to me.

#12 Allathar

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 02:27 PM

Since when did culture become dogma? Culture adapts to the people, not the other way round.


No, although the culture gradually adapts to the people, immigrants have to adapt to the major culture in the country. Let's say you go to some Arabic country for example, wouldn't it be normal to adapt to the rules and culture there? You know, respect the people there, have your wife wear cloth around her head... Why don't the immigrants from Arab countries have to do the same here? But no, the political correct elite wants us to adapt to and understand them...
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#13 Puppeteer

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:17 PM

Since when did culture become dogma? Culture adapts to the people, not the other way round.


No, although the culture gradually adapts to the people, immigrants have to adapt to the major culture in the country. Let's say you go to some Arabic country for example, wouldn't it be normal to adapt to the rules and culture there? You know, respect the people there, have your wife wear cloth around her head... Why don't the immigrants from Arab countries have to do the same here? But no, the political correct elite wants us to adapt to and understand them...

Here's a hint: stop thinking of the immigrants as them, but us. Doesn't matter if we were born here - we're here now, and are as much a part of the country as everybody else.
This is one of the things that I know I'm against: the rejection of external cultural influences. Without it, we'd fester in introvert cultural stagnation.
It works both ways: no one forces erstwhile cultural values on anyone else - immigrant or indigenous.
Of course, without mutual compliance and concessions, people would stick to their own social groups, leading to racial tensions in smaller communities and racial disparities in employment/income/welfare nationally. People need to make the effort. An example could be the local authorities not enforcing the use of the native language, but offering courses to teach immigrants (subsidised provided they have a visa entitling them to stay here for, say, longer than a year).

Edited by Puppeteer, 12 June 2010 - 03:28 PM.


#14 Phil

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:34 PM

Bart, do you seriously believe that?! The PVV has nothing to do with racism and discrimination, they only want to stop the Islam from further sucking away our culture, and I agree with that.

Islam is a religion, not a culture. Thus Islam can not suck away your culture.
What you refer to is the culture of the (muslim) immigrants. Islam only has a secondary role here. Those immigrants often aren't the liberal intellectual elite, as these often don't have to leave their countries looking for a way to make a living, or they blend so well with our system that you won't even notice. No, the people who come to Western Europe are usually poor, undereducated, simple people from rural areas (sorry to sound elitist, but it's true) . And they bring with them a conservative culture influenced by tradition and more radical Islam. Don't make it too easy for yourself and simply blame it on Islam alone; I doubt the stereotypical conservative Christian family from the American Midwest would integrate better here.

Living a liberal, secular Islam is very well possible. Unfortunately in recent times the conservative, radical Wahhabi Islam has taken a big leap forward in the Muslim world because Saudi Arabia is buying nations and people and indoctrinating them. They buy politicians, finance campaigns and sponsor schools that teach this form of Islam. 30-40 years ago things were a lot different. For example, Islam in Turkey was secularized so much that the girls and young women were walking around freely, in western fashion, while they weren't allowed to do that in Sicily. Religion means nothing. The way you live it, your personal orientation, everything.

Also, what always bothers me is when people say "our culture". Please define what "our culture" means in your eyes, as I often find that when right-wingers here in Switzerland use it, I'd rather not support their version of "our culture" or "our country". Yes, I often feel closer to liberals from other cultures than conservatives from my own.

The last years have been downright frustrating - lots and lots of immigrants who have no chance whatsoever to build a future here were permitted to enter the country anyway, costing billions of euros which should've been spent on education or healthcare. The children of the immigrants are now terrorizing the streets. In the big cities, elder people are afraid to go out of their houses at night. Worst of all, if you even try to say something about these huge problems, you're labeled as a racist, like you're doing right now.

How about giving them a chance to build a future then, for a change? Also, how is all that money spent on immigrants then? It's not like they turn money into thin air, do they? Or do you believe social justice stops at nationality?

However, I agree that you should be allowed to speak freely about the problems that exist. It's just that this doesn't free you from having to remain objective and find real solutions, not just "they make problems, deport them!".

The political correct elite sees some of these problems too, but they try to ignore it, thinking it's not that big of a deal. They try to understand the other cultures, try to adapt to them. Horribly wrong in my opinion - if an immigrant wants to live in this country, it's okay, but then he has to adapt to our rules and our culture, not the other way around! And the punishments for the crimes committed by the islam youth are also a joke - task punishments have become a sort of status symbol for them now.

Oh gee, here comes one of my favourite arguments of recent: The political correct elite. What does the elite know anyway, those stupid educated intelligent people running the whole state and economy. What astounds me though is that these anti-intellectual arguments have become popular even among smart people. Political correctness can be overdone, but I'll take it any day over the mindless discriminating bullshit coming from the right.

Also, thank God Switzerland has had a wave of French and mainly Italian immigration in the last century, at least now we have restaurants that cook delicious food.

- close the borders for all immigrants who have no chance to build a future here whatsoever

I disagree, but feel free to shut off your country and see how your economy takes the blow when suddenly nobody's around to do the dirty hard work anymore because European people feel too good for it.

- force immigrants to learn the Dutch language and adapt to our culture. If they don't do that, goodbye.

I partly agree. Language is very important for integration, so sometimes people need to be forced for their own good. Have them take mandatory free classes, that'll help.

- stop the political correct bullshit, and instead admit the problems of the multicultural society and work on real solutions

Correct. It's just that those real solutions hardly ever come from the right.

- raise the punishments. Right now you get to clean the park for a couple of hours for violently abusing someone.

I don't know the legal system in the Netherlands, so I won't comment on that. However, don't be too quick to say what's right and wrong, as criminal law is a very difficult topic. Go ask the people running prisons, they know.

- immigrants who go into major crime or violence, have to leave the country immediately.

Sigh, we're currently dealing with that issue here in Switzerland and I have the ugly feeling that we'll make another big mistake. Maybe I'll write a longer text about this another time, but in essence: Don't try to make this automatic, leave it to the judges and the authorities to make that decision. Otherwise you'll just enact collective punishment against a whole family.

- stop the islamisation of the country. Close Islamitic schools - they make the integration and adaptation of immigrant children to our culture very difficult. The islamitic youth needs to go to common, Dutch schools.

Yes, and then also close all Christian, Jewish and other religious schools and ban homeschooling. They too should go to common, state schools.

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#15 Allathar

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:34 PM

Of course, without mutual compliance and concessions, people would stick to their own social groups, leading to racial tensions in smaller communities and racial disparities in employment/income/welfare nationally. People need to make the effort. An example could be the local authorities not enforcing the use of the native language, but offering courses to teach immigrants (subsidised provided they have a visa entitling them to stay here for, say, longer than a year).


Not enforcing the use of the native language? Yeah, I'm sure that'll help them integrate into our society...
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#16 Mathijs

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:56 PM

Bart, do you seriously believe that?! The PVV has nothing to do with racism and discrimination, they only want to stop the Islam from further sucking away our culture, and I agree with that. The last years have been downright frustrating - lots and lots of immigrants who have no chance whatsoever to build a future here were permitted to enter the country anyway, costing billions of euros which should've been spent on education or healthcare. The children of the immigrants are now terrorizing the streets. In the big cities, elder people are afraid to go out of their houses at night. Worst of all, if you even try to say something about these huge problems, you're labeled as a racist, like you're doing right now.


Actually, actually, I beg to differ. The PVV has plenty to do with discrimination. The most glaring case I have noticed is where they want to take away the Dutch passport and deport immigrants back to their homeland when they commit a crime and own a second passport. Why is this discrimination? Because once you become a Dutch citizen, you have the same rights as the rest of the country, which means the PVV singles them out based on where they came from. Also, countries like Morocco do not allow their people to get rid of their passports, which means that Moroccan immigrants have no choice but to have two. Their old government refuses to cancel their passport. So, if a Dutch citizen originally hailing from Morocco commits a crime, he is thrown out, if a Dutch citizen born here commits a crime, he gets a different treatment. If that's what you think is fair, then we might as well get rid of the entire concept of citizenship, because it has clearly become utterly meaningless, seeing as people are still judged based on where they came from originally.

This whole immigration industry costs 7.2 billion euros a year. 7.2 billion euros! And at the same time the political correct parties want to cut in the budget for healthcare and education, and raise the taxes so they can redirect the money of common working man to the benefits of some hopeless immigrant...


A typical VVD voter, spewing dumbshit propaganda. Can you define which parties you consider ''politically correct''? The Socialist Party, I'm sure? Because they have no intention of cutting the budget for healthcare and education. Au contraire.

And what's wrong with giving poor, hopeless immigrants a chance at a better future? Nothing, as long as it doesn't cost me a dime, right? How selfish! But then again, you voted VVD. It was to be expected.

The rest was already said by Phil.

Edit: Just to be clear on this, I didn't vote last week. The general stupidity of the country made me want to stay in bed rather than pour my tiny little drop onto the immense hot plate. And of course the Cynic was Correct, looking at the results.

Edited by Matias, 12 June 2010 - 04:02 PM.

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#17 Puppeteer

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 03:58 PM

Of course, without mutual compliance and concessions, people would stick to their own social groups, leading to racial tensions in smaller communities and racial disparities in employment/income/welfare nationally. People need to make the effort. An example could be the local authorities not enforcing the use of the native language, but offering courses to teach immigrants (subsidised provided they have a visa entitling them to stay here for, say, longer than a year).


Not enforcing the use of the native language? Yeah, I'm sure that'll help them integrate into our society...


People need to make the effort.

When they don't make the effort, they can't make demands. Similarly, if you don't make the effort, you can't make demands of them. I'm not saying the effort has to be in equal parts - immigrants coming to a country often have had to struggle to get to said country, and most will be prepared to make the most of it. Immigrants only start isolating themselves into racial but communally insular bitterness when a country doesn't welcome them. Force and neglect are both counter-productive.

#18 Allathar

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 04:07 PM

Islam is a religion, not a culture. Thus Islam can not suck away your culture.
What you refer to is the culture of the (muslim) immigrants. Islam only has a secondary role here. Those immigrants often aren't the liberal intellectual elite, as these often don't have to leave their countries looking for a way to make a living, or they blend so well with our system that you won't even notice. No, the people who come to Western Europe are usually poor, undereducated, simple people from rural areas (sorry to sound elitist, but it's true) . And they bring with them a conservative culture influenced by tradition and more radical Islam. Don't make it too easy for yourself and simply blame it on Islam alone; I doubt the stereotypical conservative Christian family from the American Midwest would integrate better here.


Disagreed, in broad terms you can speak of an islamic culture, one that is shapen by, indeed, the Islam. I don't have a problem with that, as long as they are willing to pick up the western culture and native language too, and when the 'rules' of the two come into conflict they go for the western culture. I don't know how it is in Switzerland, but over here we already have people who refuse to shake hands with women, and women who refuse to remove their burka when visiting a doctor (!).

Religion means nothing. The way you live it, your personal orientation, everything.


Agreed, but as as I said, the two are shapen by eachother, in particular with the Islam.

Also, what always bothers me is when people say "our culture". Please define what "our culture" means in your eyes, as I often find that when right-wingers here in Switzerland use it, I'd rather not support their version of "our culture" or "our country". Yes, I often feel closer to liberals from other cultures than conservatives from my own.


I'm not a sociologist, but the greatest difference between islamic and western culture is freedom. Freedom of action, freedom of speech, freedom to do what you please as long as it doesn't harm others. It may sound contradictory that I say that we should limit the islamic influence here, but the islamic culture is one that wants to remove freedom and impasses it's own laws on everything.

How about giving them a chance to build a future then, for a change? Also, how is all that money spent on immigrants then? It's not like they turn money into thin air, do they? Or do you believe social justice stops at nationality?


I'm fine with letting them build a future here, but it bothers me that a lot of the immigrants simply don't take the chance - they are okay with living on benefits (and the healthcare is great and free here too!). Many just aren't willing to work. And all the money is spent on language courses, integration courses, benefits, immigrants who abuse the healthcare system, fighting the crime of islamic youth in the big cities, fixing vandalized property, etc.

Oh gee, here comes one of my favourite arguments of recent: The political correct elite. What does the elite know anyway, those stupid educated intelligent people running the whole state and economy. What astounds me though is that these anti-intellectual arguments have become popular even among smart people. Political correctness can be overdone, but I'll take it any day over the mindless discriminating bullshit coming from the right.


They don't know what's going on. The leftist political elite are sitting in their huge houses in some calm village, away from all the problems, saying 'we should help the immigrants!', while the big cities have turned into islamic ghetto's where many people don't even know to speak Dutch.

Also, thank God Switzerland has had a wave of French and mainly Italian immigration in the last century, at least now we have restaurants that cook delicious food.


You hit the nail on the head, French and mainly Italian immigration. Talk again when you encounter the problems of a million people from islamic countries entering your country.

I disagree, but feel free to shut off your country and see how your economy takes the blow when suddenly nobody's around to do the dirty hard work anymore because European people feel too good for it.


We already have enough immigrants to do that already, and most of the dirty hard work is done by immigrants from Eastern Europe countries, who don't cause problems.

Correct. It's just that those real solutions hardly ever come from the right.


And most of the problems come from the left.

- immigrants who go into major crime or violence, have to leave the country immediately.

Sigh, we're currently dealing with that issue here in Switzerland and I have the ugly feeling that we'll make another big mistake. Maybe I'll write a longer text about this another time, but in essence: Don't try to make this automatic, leave it to the judges and the authorities to make that decision. Otherwise you'll just enact collective punishment against a whole family.


At least that threatens them to not cause problems here and adjust to our society.

Yes, and then also close all Christian, Jewish and other religious schools and ban homeschooling. They too should go to common, state schools.


Jewish and Christian schools don't harm integration. Islamic schools do. And I think homeschooling is forbidden here.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#19 Vortigern

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 04:09 PM

From a personal perspective, I've known a fair few immigrants, students and workers and a couple of layabouts, one of whom has now been deported. But the majority of them really do want to work for a better life here. I have a Bulgarian friend called Alex, he's 26, he's been learning English for just over a year since he's been here and is already verging on fluent. He hangs out with English people at work and at home and is doing his best to be a valuable person. I'm reasonably sure he's a decent example of most immigrants to this, or any, country. It's only the very small minority who cheat the system or turn up just to commit crimes. But as usual, we judge the entire cross-section by its worst parts.
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#20 Mathijs

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 04:21 PM

Also, I didn't really like the Facebook thing Bart posted, but I took the time to translate this one image I saw on there, just to make sure the people who aren't from 'round here understand just what this PVV (Geert Wilders) stands for.

Ho ho.

http://sphotos.ak.fb...3_4254358_n.jpg

The picture in question, here is the translation:

Literal quotes from the PVV election programme that are discriminatory or against our constitution or European treaties, meaning they can hardly be a part of any coalition. The PVV will have to get rid of these points to allow participation in the government.

- Islam is mostly a political ideology, and for that it can't possibly fall back on the privileges of a religion.
- No more mosques
- Close all Islamic schools
- No headscarves (note: headscarves, not burkas) in Health, Education, City Halls, or whatever government entity, nor in any subsidised organisation.
- Pull the plug from the Commission of Equal Treatment, the phony multicultural courts.
- EU: Turkey in, the Netherlands out.
- Forbid the Quran and the Burka, tax (yes, tax) headscarves.
- Forbid Quran lessons in schools, completely.
- Assimilation contracts: Refuse to sign, refuse to adhere; deported.
- Foreigners can either work or get out. No job = No place in the Netherlands.
- Criminals deported after punishment if they only have a license to stay or a double nationality.
- Integration exam in land of origin, until then; if you failed the integration course in the Netherlands, out you go!
- Dutch nationality only after ten years of legitimate stay in the Netherlands, but only if you have no criminal record.
- Work and live for 10 years in the Netherlands before you have the right to claim any welfare or entitlement. Only if you speak Dutch well.
- Close the job market for Poland, don't open it for Romania and Bulgaria.
- And most of all: Complete immigration stop for people from Islamic countries.
- Get rid of the EU parliament.
- The Netherlands is returned all its power and vetorights.

.... urgh I've had enough. Another highlight before I get some dinner:

- And most of all: No climate policy
- Battle against Islam should be the main priority of our foreign policy
- Nobody with a double nationality allowed to be elected into any form of government


I left some of the more intricate, EU-related ones out because I don't want to look up all the translations. These are the best ones, though.

Edited by Matias, 12 June 2010 - 04:22 PM.

No fuel left for the pilgrims





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