Jump to content


Photo

General Strategy


42 replies to this topic

#21 Stormhawk

Stormhawk
  • Members
  • 223 posts

Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:14 PM

One thing about the transports, I think they are so powerful that fighters and most bombers become obsolete. A group of powerful transports has almost as much firepower and way more survivability than a squadron of fighter-bombers. More specifically, I am always hesitant to use advanced TIE models (Avenger, Defender) because of their abysmal hull strength. I've seen squadrons of the things torn apart by A-wings or Z-95's just because I didn't activate flare quickly enough. Delta transports have almost as much bombing power and much more hull strength than the Defender, not to mention lower cost. The only advantage the Defender has is it's speed, which can be compensated for with careful maneuvering. The only role that I don't think transports can fill well is that of heavy bomber. I can't think of a replacement for the K-wing or the Scimitar, but transports can provide fighter cover and can fill the role of strike fighter in fleet engagements.

My end conclusion is that I think that either fighters should receive some counter to concussion missiles (30% dodge chance, perhaps) or capital ships should have increased accuracy against transports with turbolasers because at this point, it seems as it lasers and missiles do not do enough damage to take them down quickly and turbolasers are simply too inaccurate.

#22 McDman

McDman
  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 18 August 2010 - 02:24 AM

One thing about the transports, I think they are so powerful that fighters and most bombers become obsolete. A group of powerful transports has almost as much firepower and way more survivability than a squadron of fighter-bombers. More specifically, I am always hesitant to use advanced TIE models (Avenger, Defender) because of their abysmal hull strength. I've seen squadrons of the things torn apart by A-wings or Z-95's just because I didn't activate flare quickly enough. Delta transports have almost as much bombing power and much more hull strength than the Defender, not to mention lower cost. The only advantage the Defender has is it's speed, which can be compensated for with careful maneuvering. The only role that I don't think transports can fill well is that of heavy bomber. I can't think of a replacement for the K-wing or the Scimitar, but transports can provide fighter cover and can fill the role of strike fighter in fleet engagements.

My end conclusion is that I think that either fighters should receive some counter to concussion missiles (30% dodge chance, perhaps) or capital ships should have increased accuracy against transports with turbolasers because at this point, it seems as it lasers and missiles do not do enough damage to take them down quickly and turbolasers are simply too inaccurate.


I don't see the fascination with transports. I mean no offense, but whatever makes them so awesome must of flown clear over my head. With the Empire I take Avengers to max and Nova Wings to max, and they do most of the work. As for Rebellion/NR, I go 1/2 E-Wings 1/2 A-Wings and upgrade them to full for fighters, and then upgrade K-Wings for bombers. Then again, I've never really played against an opponent who enjoys transport spam. ;)

As for TIE's lacking hull strength. That's kind of the point. The Empire wanted cheap and easy to mass produce fighters. As for Avengers or Defenders sucking vacuum as a result of A-Wings or Z-95's, I have no idea how that would work. Avengers have a very nice missile compliment, and when fully upgraded are very hard to match. Avengers should be able to fly circles around Defenders. Always bring more fighter squadrons then you need. Its called a fighter screen for a reason.

As for countering transports, I recommend upgrading the Lancer frigate and fighter squadrons with missile compliments. Lancers are nasty to transports, the only downside being that they won't live long against full salvos.

What range are your capital ships engaging the transports? Turbos tend to make atoms out of anything that size that gets relatively close.

I'm not trying to start anything or insult in anyway. Just trying to get a feel for the situation. I'm not Thrawn, I can't find stuff out from art. :p

#23 Phoenix Rising

Phoenix Rising

    Beyond the Impossible

  • Petrolution Staff
  • 6,509 posts
  • Projects:Phoenix Rising
  •  Mod Leader
  • Division:Petrolution
  • Job:Mod Specialist

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:44 AM

So anyone want to share their thoughts on strategies to work against the AI?

Great idea. We should be able to differentiate strategies that work because they're good from those that work because the AI is stupid and use that info for future AI improvements.

That might be because of the amount of damage everything deals. I usually multiply all the <Damage>X</Damage> values in Projectiles.xml with 0.8. It also makes it a bit more realistic.

Try Default_Defense_Adjust in GameConstants.xml. Set it to 1.25 or so.

The only problem I have with Recuscants is that they can be pretty flimsy. I think I did a oombination of Reef Home MC80s and Recuscants for one campaign, and lots quite a few more of the latter when it came to fighting Imperials and Praetors.

Because of the space layers, they're probably better paired with CC-9600s or something along that line (and size).

I can't list its armament when fully upgraded, but sixteen heavies, an advanced, and five regulars isn't bad firepower, especially if you try and take on frigates and cruisers.

The key here is coverage, and it has weapons are all over the place. There are no blind spots, but the anti-starship guns basically only work in the bottom arc and anti-starfighter in the top arc. It's not very easy to overlap fire.

One really has to wonder how starfighter pilots make their living when this much stuff kills them all the time.

It's a lot better since removing the -100% defense adjustment for not being in a dogfight (a relic from vanilla).

#24 Zeta1127

Zeta1127

    Supporter of P-canon

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • Location:A galaxy far, far away
  • Projects:A Galaxy Far, Far Away
  •  Ancient Order of the Whills Clone Marshal Commander of the 89th Legion

Posted 18 August 2010 - 05:58 AM

The tactical AI's problem is it just sends everything at you in waves based on speed, fighters first, then corvettes, and finally all of the big stuff. All one has to do is send one's corvettes and other anti-fighter ships forward first, and disperse the first wave of fighters. Then send in your frigates, cruisers, and capitals to deal with their comparable ships with concentrated fire, bombers help with that, and you lose virtually nothing.

Late yesterday I was playing Core Worlds as the Galactic Empire on Medium, my third attempt, since I am just now getting a feel for the new ways of doing things, especially in GC (something that hadn't been worth the time due to the limitations of the machine I had been using). I have so far taken Kalist VI and Khomm from Byss, but lost my starting Byss fleet above Khomm to a Liberty, a Reef Home, and a little support (I killed 2 ships). The AI likes to take Fondor, then Chandrila, and finally Wistril fairly quickly (for a slow as molasses AI). Then I moved on Kaikalius (No loses in space), Mentellos, and soon after Cal-Seti (just the surface for the last two, I want some better ships first), giving me solid income. The AI attacked just after I took the surface of N'zoth (raiding really helps!), then I sent my Coruscant starting fleet (Vader has been upgraded with the Exactor) there, but a land battle ensued before I could get there, though saved the planet (ground combat really is a mess right now, but in a good way!). Then I took orbit of N'zoth (I need a Star Destroyer shipyard at some point, and the only loses above N'zoth were a Carrack and I sold any fighters I didn't lose). Then the AI decided to attack Kaikelius from Chandrila, the Coruscant fleet was at N'zoth so it couldn't get to a planet yet again! I defended the planet with 2 Golan IIs and a XQ5 against 2 Liberties, a Reef Home, a Valiant, and a Nebulon-B, only the Reef Home escaped and I lost nothing! That's what has happened so far.

Note: I softened the Local Forces to 1 or more, depending on how much was there in the first place. It was meant to do two things; my other computer couldn't handle the original setup, and I thought that the numbers were a little excessive.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#25 Tropical Bob

Tropical Bob

    title available

  • Members
  • 1,348 posts

Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:12 PM

I don't see the fascination with transports. I mean no offense, but whatever makes them so awesome must of flown clear over my head.

Transports are immensely powerful. I advise you to take advantage of them when you get a chance. Some, like the Barloz, Sentinel, and Lambda, are only really good against fighters, and not as good at that as others. Once you start getting ones like the Skipray, Gamma, and YT-2000, you'll see how great they are.

Their advantage is that they have strong shields/hull to protect against anti-fighter weapons, strong lasers in addition to concussion missiles to take out fighters, sometimes include proton torpedoes to help them take on heavy ships, and have a small enough profile so that many heavier weapons will end up missing a good portion of the time.

#26 Ghostrider

Ghostrider

    Sith Lord of Campaigns

  • Project Team
  • 2,035 posts
  •  Phoenix Rising QA Lead; Manual Editor

Posted 18 August 2010 - 04:24 PM

I don't see the fascination with transports. I mean no offense, but whatever makes them so awesome must of flown clear over my head.

Transports are immensely powerful. I advise you to take advantage of them when you get a chance. Some, like the Barloz, Sentinel, and Lambda, are only really good against fighters, and not as good at that as others. Once you start getting ones like the Skipray, Gamma, and YT-2000, you'll see how great they are.

Their advantage is that they have strong shields/hull to protect against anti-fighter weapons, strong lasers in addition to concussion missiles to take out fighters, sometimes include proton torpedoes to help them take on heavy ships, and have a small enough profile so that many heavier weapons will end up missing a good portion of the time.


Exactly. These ships are extremely rugged. With a few upgrades even the humble Barloz ends up with superb shields (340 RU) and basic but reliable armaments. The real sting is the fact that most transports have turreted weapnry meaning they fire ALL THE TIME. Even advanced fighters rarely have shields greater than 100 and thier fixed guns only fire when the fighter is on your tail.
And you get a modest income once you get to the Mark IV upgrade!
These have real staying power in a long term fight and the dollar to damage ratio is superb! Their heavy hulls also means they have a good chance of surviving missile hits which vape most fighters with ease.

In fact they are so powerful en masse that I have had to seriously cut numbers in many campaigns. I messed up on the inital forces for Carida in TO and ended up with a fleet of 8 DX9's, 6 Lambdas, 7 ATR_6's and a few Sentinels in addition to the cruisers and capitals when I compined the fleets of Carida, Poderis and the other one to assault the NR. The swarm of transports blew everything in sight to bits with a massive torpedo and missile barrage. My Caps just sat back and watched the fireworks with a nice cup of tea on the bridge. I didn't bother moving them at all!
I had to scrap the entire starting force and redo from scratch with only a mere handful of transports to make the campaign balance.

If you plan to take on the Soverign in OSH, i suggest you load up on advanced transports rather than cruisers and caps!

So if you see transports en-masse, be warned!
Ghost

#27 Phoenix Rising

Phoenix Rising

    Beyond the Impossible

  • Petrolution Staff
  • 6,509 posts
  • Projects:Phoenix Rising
  •  Mod Leader
  • Division:Petrolution
  • Job:Mod Specialist

Posted 18 August 2010 - 05:57 PM

Their advantage is that they have strong shields/hull to protect against anti-fighter weapons, strong lasers in addition to concussion missiles to take out fighters, sometimes include proton torpedoes to help them take on heavy ships, and have a small enough profile so that many heavier weapons will end up missing a good portion of the time.

They're big enough to hit with turbolasers at close range. Gamble at medium range and don't even try long range. Tell something 40 m to strafe a capital and prepare to take damage!

#28 Reedek

Reedek
  • Project Team
  • 118 posts

Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:27 PM

I use Dreadnaught class Heavy Cruisers against them...Dreadnaught-class Heavy Cruisers turn them to scrap, put a few Dreadnaughts between your main ships and power to weapons to decimate them!

Also they make a good destructive force when you put them above an enemy Golan.

#29 McDman

McDman
  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 18 August 2010 - 10:03 PM

I use Dreadnaught class Heavy Cruisers against them...Dreadnaught-class Heavy Cruisers turn them to scrap, put a few Dreadnaughts between your main ships and power to weapons to decimate them!

Also they make a good destructive force when you put them above an enemy Golan.


Amen! Dreadnaughts eat transports for breakfast. Recusants do as well. Recusants are nice due to the laser defense, transports are rendered useless if you time that ability and the all power to weapons ability while transports are close. :p

As for the AI, Ive noticed that in the longer battles, they bring reinforcements into the area they originally hyperspaced into. So if the AI started in the upper right hand corner, they always bring reinforcements in there. It makes it really easy for defense, mainly because you just have to sit there and pick off ships one at a time. The AI doesn't gather strength, it just send ships in one at a time. Don't know if that is fixable, but it's just an observation I've made. :)

I'd like to be able to play against someone who heavily uses transports, just to see if what I'm saying has any basis in reality. ;)

#30 Tropical Bob

Tropical Bob

    title available

  • Members
  • 1,348 posts

Posted 19 August 2010 - 06:15 PM

They only are good against Transports if they get in range of the anti-fighter weaponry. You should have seen some of the micro I employed against evilbobthebob back when we skirmished. 5-10 units of Transports (Usually Skiprays) can take out plenty of starfighters and Dreadnaughts or Recuscants before you lose anything.

Basically, you send the Transports in range of concussion missile and proton torpedo volleys, pull back until the reload, and rinse and repeat. Devastation ensues.

#31 Guest_sargeantsandwich_*

Guest_sargeantsandwich_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 August 2010 - 06:30 PM

I normally try to counter transports by getting them into dogfights with my own transports and then dropping a dreadnaught in from hyperspace underneath them. It works for pretty much any non-illegal transport, which kill whatever you send at them.

#32 Tropical Bob

Tropical Bob

    title available

  • Members
  • 1,348 posts

Posted 19 August 2010 - 06:32 PM

I normally try to counter transports by getting them into dogfights with my own transports and then dropping a dreadnaught in from hyperspace underneath them. It works for pretty much any non-illegal transport, which kill whatever you send at them.

Other Transports and surprise ships are the best counters to Transports, for sure. Skiprays basically dominate any field of battle until the opponent brings in more advanced Transports, like the YT-2000.

#33 Guest_sargeantsandwich_*

Guest_sargeantsandwich_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 August 2010 - 07:26 PM

That and keeping your big ships in formation. any transport gets cut to pieces in all that crossfire.

#34 McDman

McDman
  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:49 AM

That and keeping your big ships in formation. any transport gets cut to pieces in all that crossfire.



Watch that crossfire boys! :p

#35 Stormhawk

Stormhawk
  • Members
  • 223 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:40 AM

One thing about the transports, I think they are so powerful that fighters and most bombers become obsolete. A group of powerful transports has almost as much firepower and way more survivability than a squadron of fighter-bombers. More specifically, I am always hesitant to use advanced TIE models (Avenger, Defender) because of their abysmal hull strength. I've seen squadrons of the things torn apart by A-wings or Z-95's just because I didn't activate flare quickly enough. Delta transports have almost as much bombing power and much more hull strength than the Defender, not to mention lower cost. The only advantage the Defender has is it's speed, which can be compensated for with careful maneuvering. The only role that I don't think transports can fill well is that of heavy bomber. I can't think of a replacement for the K-wing or the Scimitar, but transports can provide fighter cover and can fill the role of strike fighter in fleet engagements.

My end conclusion is that I think that either fighters should receive some counter to concussion missiles (30% dodge chance, perhaps) or capital ships should have increased accuracy against transports with turbolasers because at this point, it seems as it lasers and missiles do not do enough damage to take them down quickly and turbolasers are simply too inaccurate.


I don't see the fascination with transports. I mean no offense, but whatever makes them so awesome must of flown clear over my head. With the Empire I take Avengers to max and Nova Wings to max, and they do most of the work. As for Rebellion/NR, I go 1/2 E-Wings 1/2 A-Wings and upgrade them to full for fighters, and then upgrade K-Wings for bombers. Then again, I've never really played against an opponent who enjoys transport spam. ;)

As for TIE's lacking hull strength. That's kind of the point. The Empire wanted cheap and easy to mass produce fighters. As for Avengers or Defenders sucking vacuum as a result of A-Wings or Z-95's, I have no idea how that would work. Avengers have a very nice missile compliment, and when fully upgraded are very hard to match. Avengers should be able to fly circles around Defenders. Always bring more fighter squadrons then you need. Its called a fighter screen for a reason.

As for countering transports, I recommend upgrading the Lancer frigate and fighter squadrons with missile compliments. Lancers are nasty to transports, the only downside being that they won't live long against full salvos.

What range are your capital ships engaging the transports? Turbos tend to make atoms out of anything that size that gets relatively close.

I'm not trying to start anything or insult in anyway. Just trying to get a feel for the situation. I'm not Thrawn, I can't find stuff out from art. :p


The thing is, I've only been able to use fighters and bombers effectively on strafing runs. In a dogfights, their fixed forward mounted weaponry simply cannot match the swiveled and turreted weaponry on the transports. Ive found that I can just match Barloz's or Skiprays 1 on 1 with fighters and always emerge victorious because if the stay and dogfight you, you win, and if they run, you get free volleys of missiles on them. Transports can really only be killed by concentrated cap ship fire from close range, and good micro (see Tropical Bob's post) can avoid that, since compared to transports, frigates and cruisers are slower then sleepy Hutts.

About the fighters, I agree that 1 on 1, Avengers can easily defeat Z-95's. The problem is, the Avenger is far more expensive. Losing such advanced fighters to missiles when, say, E-wings or X-wings would only have taken minor damage is frustrating. As Empire, I hardly ever invest in upgrading the Avenger or Defender because Gammas or Deltas are much safer investments.

Edited by Stormhawk, 20 August 2010 - 03:44 AM.


#36 Zeta1127

Zeta1127

    Supporter of P-canon

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • Location:A galaxy far, far away
  • Projects:A Galaxy Far, Far Away
  •  Ancient Order of the Whills Clone Marshal Commander of the 89th Legion

Posted 20 August 2010 - 04:29 AM

I upgrade Avengers and Defenders, because I can micro them very well. The key to dogfights is going on the offensive when you have concussion missiles, you can take them out before they take you out. Transports are good, but concussion missiles are also a good option for dealing with them, if you can get enough firing at once.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#37 skie9173

skie9173

    Rebel (not so) High Command

  • Members
  • 257 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 04:37 AM

Maybe this is just my experience but high level y-wings can actually be fairly effective against transports, even more so when paired with other fighters (namely x&a wings). Fly the Y-wings in first and let the turreted ions chew through shields, then mess up the transports engines, they become big sitting ducks. Sending in high level Y-wings first can be a somewhat effective strategy thanks to those turrets and their heavy shield/hulls. Make them fly straight threw the fighter screen rather than dogfighting. X-wings come in and pop go the Ties. Just a little microing against the transports to keep your fighter behind them for the most part works fairly well too, you'll take damage sure but you'll take them down too, at least eventually.

Dodonna and dreadnought hyperspace surprises are still the most efficent way to fight them though i think
There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no death, there is the Force.

#38 SpardaSon21

SpardaSon21

    title available

  • Members
  • 332 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 05:07 AM

Upgraded K-Wings are really nasty since they have some turreted weapons (including a light slugthrower turret), and a fair number of missile weapons and unlike transports come in full squadrons of twelve. They can also trigger their SLAM's if they have a need for speed.

#39 Tropical Bob

Tropical Bob

    title available

  • Members
  • 1,348 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 05:21 AM

To me, it seems like anything with concussion missiles fare relatively well against Transports.

#40 Casen

Casen

    title available

  • Members
  • 1,039 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:25 PM

Something that's quite underrated is fully upgraded TIE Bombers. From a standoff distance, they can be used to destroy fighter swarms with concussion missiles.



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users