461 replies to this topic

[Lauri]

Yeah, don't be afraid to get up a few different ones. I know mike's pretty good, and if you want Gfire, just make one aswell

[mike_]

Thanks guys, I'll see what I can do and I can't wait to see what you can toss together Gfire.

Rough Draft of some Spartan information:


Sparta – Lacedaemon
Strengths
+Professional military, starts with combat-ready units.
+Military is state-funded, so blacksmiths (bronzesmiths, really) would be a necessity. Strong economy.
+Agriculture was integral to Sparta’s existence, and was worked by slaves (Helots). Strong economy^2.
Weaknesses
-Relatively small number of combat units per horde. Never had a large number of freeborn Spartan men (what with the agoge ‘n all). Also, the extensive amount of training and equipment used by Spartan soldiers would dictate a high cost in both CPs and resources.
-No allies. Any allies Sparta had were through conquest, and as such would not provide military support.
-No long-range units. Spartans believed the bow and arrow to be a cowardly weapon, and so did not train their soldiers in its use.
-No walls. They were also seen as cowardly.
Units
~Lacedaemon Hopilitai, or Spartan Hoplite. Easily the best heavy infantry in the game. Armed with a spear (doru) and shield (aspis), they are protected by a bronze panoply – a suit of armour covering the entire body. They also have secondary melee weapons in the form of the xiphos (a short thrusting sword, see here) or battle-ax (described earlier). I would recommend that they come in hordes of nine individuals, getting a tenth banner carrier with upgrade to Rank Two. The nine main hoplites could form into a three-deep phalanx, with the tenth man standing behind them. Would recommend that they be able to merge with other hordes for larger phalanxes.
~Lacedaemon Peltastati, or Spartan Peltast. The only real distance-fighters for Sparta. They would use either slings or javelins (whichever would be easier for the modders, really) and carry a small wicker shield. They would otherwise be unarmoured. Interestingly, they were generally Helots given a chance at freedom by serving in the military. Maybe a Draft-like system could be arranged to upgrade Helots into Peltasts? Would recommend that they carry a xiphos for defense (Gondor Ranger style, not toggling!) or decoration if not codeable. For hordes, should outnumber the Hoplites at least.
Technologies
-Linothorax. Thick linen armour. Was seen as an advancement over bronze as it was easier to create and work with, and allowed the wearer more flexibility. Would translate into gameplay terms as giving the Hoplites a slight speed/health point bonus.
-Corinthian Helmets. A new model of helmets. Would translate as an increase in line of sight radius for the Hoplites as well as armour buff (using higher-quality bronze and iron, for example).
-Sauroter. In history, was a second spearhead attached to the bottom of spears for two purposes: to stand them up straight in the ground (as well as skewer crippled opponents, hence the name), or to retain the spear as a weapon in case the spear broke. Would be represented in gameplay by an overall damage-output buff to Hoplites.
~Ekdromoi. Transforms the Hoplites into Ekdromoi, faster-moving, higher-attack powering hoplites. The above upgrades would be prerequisites to having Ekdromoi, which would be a rename and possibly new texture for the Hoplites (if each upgrade wasn’t a texture-upgrade in itself). The end result would be faster, heavier-hitting hoplites more able to stand on their own.

I'll post more when I find more information.

Edited by mike_, 02 November 2010 - 05:58 PM.

[Kwen]

What about CaH?

Couldn't we use it to make some sort of hero, like an officer or a general. One that you create. Sifting through different sorts of armor and helmet designs and such. And the classes could be like you said above, based on fighting style.

[mike_]

That... could be very cool, actually

[Ganon]

Indeed...

And a lot of work.

[Lauri]

I don't have access to your thrusting sword mike

But I do like your ideas very much.. However, would that mean they only have 2 kinds of units? And we could always incorporate visual upgrades\changes with the techs

CaH is something I thought of aswell.. A place were we could basically put all kinds of different armour designs to allow big customisation. And we could include a wide spectre of different family symbols to have on their shield of choice. Lots of possibilities

[Elvenlord]

I think the peltasts should actually have fewer per horde than the hoplites. It doesn't make much sense for skirmishers to have a rather large formation. They would still cost far less in both cp and resources though.

[Lauri]

Also, will cavalry play any role in Sparta? Or Athens? I don't really mind if they don't, just wondering... Of course, even if we add some light cavalry, I don't want any it to be possible to win against a decent enemy army with just cavalry.

[mike_]

Well, horses (and horsemen) weren't very popular in armies at the time beyond scouts and maybe light skirmishers. Or so I recall. I'd vote to leave them out.

[Kwen]

We just make no crush really. And that they cant trample over guys. So they're almost useless for fighting. Only good for small skirmishes, and travelling across map.

[mike_]

On the topic of units, I'd honestly rather keep it simple. That's how it was at the time. I mean, if you guys think that it's necessary to have 4-5 types of hoplites, feel free to do so, it would just be redundant as Hell

[Ganon]

Well, if you remove trampling from the cavalry, that would really give it the AoE feel...
And therefore, make cavalry a little more appealing. (Not to mention, it would be a simple tweak in the code to get the desired results.)

Edited by Ganon2020, 02 November 2010 - 06:44 PM.

[Gfire]

Yeah, a few light cavalry units made to be scouts, with no crushing, would be great. Somewhat like Scout/Light Cavalry/Hussars in AoE2. Not real strong but good speed, no knight-style units. They wouldn't really need any sort of stable structures on their own, probably.

On second thought, I'm good with tech trees but not really familiar with the historical aspect, so I'll make something but it may need work in order to be historically accurate.

It seems this would be very technology-based, with not a whole lot of units but many technologies to specialize them.

[Lauri]

Yeah, I don't mind keeping it very simple in terms of units. I mean, if we could have 5 different hoplites, that's barely different, I'd rather have 1.
I mean, for Rohan you can have Cavalry with Axes, Cavalry with Swords, and cavalry with Spears. They'd be different, but not really

Specializing them through upgrades sounds like a much better idea! Numerous upgrades will probably define the gameplay on this mod, and gameplay-changing mods are hard to come by.. yeah, I realize this is a TC mod, even harder to come by

[Kwen]

Which is why we should act

[Lauri]

Aye

Anyways, I just remembered, and skimmed the first page of this topic.
It's the ideas thread for the Greece faction that got "planned" in the Community Project. I don't know what's relevant really, but I'd suggest mike and Gfire to both check it out, just to see if there's anything worth of ripping

[Gfire]

I'm not against a few types of units though... For instance, a lighter Hoplite which has a formation to increase movement speed. But it could be a unit-specialization which you upgrade per horde. They would be less armored and thus die quicker in skirmish but have the ability to do better against skirmishers when in loose formation.

Perhaps because of the skirmisher's ability to move quicker and outrange ordinary Hoplites, light Hoplites would be used in order to catch up with the skirmishers, or give chase to fleeing enemies.

So you could have standard hoplites, and have light hoplites to move quicker outside of phalanx, and heavier hoplites to be stronger in phalanx but potentially slower in loose formation. Specialized upgrades.

For units, are Peltast and Hoplite enough, with these kinds of specialized upgrade (I'd think of it more like a unit morph, almost a different unit that is upgraded from the other,) along with a scout cavalry, and some ships? And of course some villager type units, maybe able to be drafted like peasants.

Now, as far as making Athens and Sparta different, I'd imagine that would be done with the many upgrades and the core units would be pretty much the same, perhaps some captain-style units with different powers or something?

[Mathijs]

I agree with the small amount of units and customizing these through specific upgrades. It's what I wanted to do in Echoes, and it worked pretty well in the alpha there.

[Elvenlord]

Yeah, I think some cheaper hoplites for early on might be good, like militia or something who wear less armor.

[Gfire]

As long as a unit doesn't become obsolete in the later-game.