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S.E.E.'s destiny!


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#1 Nazgûl

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 02:30 PM

Remember remember the 21:st of november...

...cause this might be the day that eventually lead to the complete collapse and death of the S.E.E. mod.


We might have reached that stage in modding that I swore would NEVER happen to SEE, mostly due to the enormous community project it did become, quite fast, through all them joint efforts to pile up loads of quality assets for this production. Quitting would mean I fail EVERYONE who contributed with hard work in hopes to see this production through. I think most of the prominent modders at T3A - especially modelers - has, more or less, and at one time or another, been involved in SEE. That's why this is a very sad day indeed, as I've just been told by my current team of coders (Ridder Geel and Ridder Blauw) that SEE might be in such bad shape, coding wise, that it suffers from irreversable bugs... I've struggled for years with Worldbuilder and getting SEE assets in there, for me, for coders, for mappers and most of all, to set up AI bases and gameplay just like I did for all other factions in SEE - meticiously. But I never reached a fully workable solution for WB regarding new stuff, not already in game or modified from vanila game stuff, which is the main reason I got stuck when adding "EvilMen" (Rhûn & Harad combined) as the 7th faction.

As a possible solution to this, the unbeleiably helpful Ridder Geel offered to help, by converting SEE to follow in the RC mod's footsteps, mening we'd get the aweome RC Starter with full blown WB access to ALL of the mod's assets - by simply pressing a button! I found this to be the coolest tool I've ever seen in modding, as fiddling with WB is extremely tedious and booring, so I'd be a fool not to take the offer. The only "downside" was that it would mean we'd have to port to run under RotWK (Rise of the Witch-king) expansion. But when RG told me he could revert back to BFME2's or even BFME1's GUI (Guided User Interface) aka menus, I felt that it wouldnt matter, as we'd replace the dreadful Angmar faction anyways, and thus gain access to all useful RotWK assets and not having to see the ugly ones (which are a lot) =p

So, work begun to acheive this, last night. Today I got the news that despite RG doing this flawlessly for RC mod, he ran into a halt for SEE. This is due to (currently) a crash in WB caused by the FxParticleSystem.INI. So... as I would have guesses, RG tried reverting back to vanilla game settings for the FXPS... but WB still crashes, with the same vague report... Noone knows how to locate this bug, and as long as we can't find it - we can't go on. There's simply no point as we can't access WB. Also, there is the risc of running into more problems like this, due to the fact that the person who coded 90% of SEE since Beta 4.5, is no longer here/around. Sûlherokhh is simply AWOL so to speak, and without him, the chance of finding bugs caused by his coding, is very small. This is a real blow towards motivation :(


The hybris of SEE

Ever since I started SEE, it has been my vision to do two things most of all...
1) Reskin all models into better looking textures and with higher movie resemblance.
2) Rebalance the game into more "realistic" gameplay.

This is what I did - THOROUGHLY - with:
- Beta I
- Beta II
- Beta III

Then Sûl came along, offered help with what he found to be a mod of his likeing. Together we coded:
- Beta IV

Then Sûl and I decided on pretty much a full partnership in this mod, and he wanted to try more and more complex stuff and add more and more cool things for SEE via coding, such as advanced AI most of all. But also new powers, new Fx, etc... And I let him - in return he said he'd truly stay for the long run. Along came the next release which was entirely coded by Sûl:
- Beta 4.5 (The current release)

With this release I lost control of the mod's fate. From hence forth and in progress towards Beta 4.6, I was dependant on Sûl's coding, as I could never reach his level of skills. In this period I also lost my girlfriend since 3 years back (to another man), and that took a MAJOR toll on my psyche which made me take a long break. During this time I guess Sûl lost interest and started to leave the forums for longer and longer periods of time. Eventually I came back, tried to wake the production to life in hopes to gain Sûl's interest again. He did come back, but after a short period of time, he vanished again and haven't been seen since feb 2010. I did what I could - I even added the new EvilMen faction, up until the missing AI and base. I made some kind of half way solution in WB by faking the WB to use some of the new assets, but I never could complete it.

During these 2 years or so, several coders have popped up, offering help. None of them lasted though, as most gave up when they saw Sûl's coding. Very complex, advanced and cool indeed, but also somewhat messy and unorganized - most likely due do him stepping in where I begun. Two coders code in different ways, ending up with a weird mixture of logic only we comprehend ourselves, thus making it very hard for a new coder to grasp the logic behind the setups. All gave up, except Ridder Geel that are still with us. RG's own mod and school hinders him from working full time with SEE though. Recently his brother, Ridder Blauw, stepped in, and showed unexpected skills for his age. He's a VERY good (and fast) coder indeed and a LOT of minor and medium things was done pretty fast in the old ToDo List. All up until this point of no return, when RG's conversion to the RC Starter dug up a problem we can't seem to solve - the GOD FORSAKEN WB problems!!! :) No wonder I could never get it to work myself, when one of T3A's imo best coders can't either, nor his skillful little brother. The force is strong in that family - but you can't save what is already doomed, I guess...


SO - this means that atm we are 100% stuck! And our options are these:

1) Cancel the mod, which I do NOT want to do... but... yeah?
2) Revert back to the very start of the vanilla game, perhaps this time base SEE on RotWK from the start? But... omg... not very appealing as it would mean 1-2 years to even get where we are now! It would also be VEEERY hard to replicate all of Sûl's awesome trimmin of the AI, which is sorta the pinnacle of Beta 4.5! *sighs*
3) Scrap all new factions (Rhûn, Harad and Rohan) since we cant get WB to work, and leave Rohan as a part of Gondor and a fragment of Rhûn and harad as a subfaction to Mordor. I bet most of you would vote for this... but I can't really say I would go into that with very much enthusiasm - at all =/

I fear this might be the bitter end to a project that has been going on for 4-5 years. :ermm:
I will contemplate with "The Fellowship of the Mod" to SEE what we will do... It's sunday, the 21:st of november, 3:23 pm, central Europeen time, and SEE is down, maybe for good. But hey, its just a game. Life goes on, I guess... :p *sobs*

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#2 Prince of the Dark Forest

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 02:48 PM

Damn. It seems like the lowest point of the mod so far...

I don't know what to say...
Ignited into the world in a flash of lightning, it gleams faintly in the heart of its mother, wood. It begins as an ember, a mere wisp of heat and colour. Its chance of survival at this critical moment is minute, yet it fights on, against the unforgiving cold, against the depths of night and against its mortal enemy: rain.

#3 King Harlaus

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 03:04 PM

It's a critical end , yeah .... so do what you want , Nazgûl , but don't loose hope ! when there is a will , there is a way .
"Life without a friend is like death without a witness."

#4 Guest_Guest_Anon_*_*

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 03:28 PM

Nooooo this was my favorite mod of all time. :ermm: It can't end like this, I was so pumped for S.E.E. 4.7. , is this some curse that 4.7 will never see the light of day?I still got hope in you Naz, and the whole S.E.E. team, don't give up yet.

#5 Elric

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 04:14 PM

THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE!!! YOU GUYS WORKED SO HARD FOR THIS TO BE A BFME 2 MOD! NOT ROTWK!!!! DIDNT YOU GUYS MAKE A BACK UP OF 4.7 BEFORE YOU TRIED TO TRANSFER IT!!!! THIS IS HORRIBLE YOU DECIDED TO DO THIS JUST FOR THE ASSETS!!! I THOUGH THIS MOD WAS SUPPOSE TO BE UNIQUE!! WHY NOT JUST MAKE YOUR OWN!!! U DIDNT HAVE TO DO IT!!! THINK OF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT DONT HAVE ROTWK! i have it but its broken i bought it twice and still dosent work... This Was By Far The Best Mod Ever!!!! Dont give up hope!!! It is still possible u just have to believe in your work and do what u think u need to do!!! :ermm: :p :) :D :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2:

#6 KingElessar2384

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 04:32 PM

OMG!!!!!!!! :ermm: THIS MOD CAN'T DIE YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *breathe* I believe in you, I believe that you will find a way. Please go on, for all SEE fans, for PJ and his movies that inspired this, and for Professor Tolkien, who started EVERYTHING that is Lord of the Rings

Edited by KingElessar2384, 21 November 2010 - 04:46 PM.

This day does not belong to one man, but to all, let us together rebuild this world, that we may share in days of peace.
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#7 Ridder Geel

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 04:36 PM

Of course we have a backup... Its just that no matter what nazgul tries, somewhere in his code, which sul wrote i believe, there is something that prevents the entire of SEE for working with worldbuilder.
Ridder Geel

#8 Nazgûl

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 05:29 PM

Eeh KingsRanger... "just for the assets"? Lol... I think you need to read my post again, and then try to post when you're more calm ;p
We need WB to go on, without it we're stuck as the assets ARE the mod. Assets means material =p

Edited by Nazgûl, 21 November 2010 - 05:29 PM.

// C}{riZpc_punch.gif
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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#9 yams in a can

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:04 PM

The days of old have past... With it's strength at full power, the SEE empire suddenly falters. One of the greatest mods in BFME history has been put to its knees by pure chance...

:ermm:

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To the professor, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.


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-yams in a can


#10 Ridder Geel

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:26 PM

Well... Not all hope is lost...
Ridder Blauw, who is very keen to prove that he can code just as good as me, is willing to recode the entire SEE, as soon as i finish making the correct foundations.
So perhaps this is not the end!
Ridder Geel

#11 njm1983

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 10:05 PM

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be SEE that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

#12 Guest_ADO_*

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 10:12 PM

Hi I have following this mod since its inception and the truth is that this news has left me touched :p I want to know that mean in terms of recoded all SEE, you mean to start all the work of the 4.7 beta?

(sorry for my ingles, I'm spanish ;) ) pleasesss do not surrender, my brother and I look forward to the 4.7

#13 KingElessar2384

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 11:07 PM

The news have passed on to some special guests who say:
Galadriel: This task was appointed to you, if you do not find a way, no one will.
Tolkien: Faithless is he who turns away when the road darkens
Gandalf: All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you
Aragorn: THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE:)
Take their word for it(Aragorn's is more encouraging) :p
This day does not belong to one man, but to all, let us together rebuild this world, that we may share in days of peace.
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#14 Imdrar

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 11:48 PM

3) Scrap all new factions (Rhûn, Harad and Rohan) since we cant get WB to work, and leave Rohan as a part of Gondor and a fragment of Rhûn and harad as a subfaction to Mordor. I bet most of you would vote for this... but I can't really say I would go into that with very much enthusiasm - at all =/


As you said: If there is no other way out, this is the best one you could choose out of three terrible options.

I am with you in this situation, and let me call you a friend even if I don't know you in any way despite of your work. It's a mirror of your incredible passion, and I really worship what you have created.
I wish you the best of a happy end for your great project, even though I deteste happy ends from the very deep of my heart in other respects.

Good luck, man.

Edited by Imdrar, 21 November 2010 - 11:59 PM.

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#15 KingElessar2384

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 12:18 AM

3) Scrap all new factions (Rhûn, Harad and Rohan) since we cant get WB to work, and leave Rohan as a part of Gondor and a fragment of Rhûn and harad as a subfaction to Mordor. I bet most of you would vote for this... but I can't really say I would go into that with very much enthusiasm - at all =/


As you said: If there is no other way out, this is the best one you could choose out of three terrible options.

I am with you in this situation, and let me call you a friend even if I don't know you in any way despite of your work. It's a mirror of your incredible passion, and I really worship what you have created.
I wish you the best of a happy end for your great project, even though I deteste happy ends from the very deep of my heart in other respects.

Good luck, man.

I'd say this is the only solution, unless you've figured out the problem in WB, or (impossible but would be a miracle) if Sul returns (hence the impossible). But if you choose the third choice, even though this will crowd the factions; you should add those new units and heroes you've worked so long on in game. I know it betrays the balance factor, but at least the mod will still survive. I wish you and SEE team my best;)

Edited by KingElessar2384, 22 November 2010 - 12:20 AM.

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#16 Elric

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 01:44 AM

Heh I never read the first paragraph cuss I wanted to cut to the chance... Sorry bout u girlfriend and it is very annoying with wb... That's y I don't even bother with the stuff lol.... I have an Idea that might work but could take a while... Take out each section of coding and add them back one by one to see which one is messed up... And then recode it your self..... But don't make it rotwk I would hate u if u did that.... Nothing personal just be annoying lol

#17 Rob38

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 02:26 AM

2) Revert back to the very start of the vanilla game, perhaps this time base SEE on RotWK from the start? But... omg... not very appealing as it would mean 1-2 years to even get where we are now! It would also be VEEERY hard to replicate all of Sûl's awesome trimmin of the AI, which is sorta the pinnacle of Beta 4.5! *sighs*

Where did you get 1-2 years? While it may be tedious work, it is certainly possible. Sûl's coding may be a little bit disorganized, but that can be fixed.

Naz, don't let your emotions get the best of you. It is completely understandable that you are frustrated and upset. I would be too given the circumstances. I believe, however, that the problem is not only fixable but also beneficial to this mod. While the coding issues seem to be an inconvenient issue right now, it was something that needed to be addressed sooner or later. This is the perfect opportunity to address the problem. Look at the issue as a solution... not a problem.

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#18 KingElessar2384

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 02:59 AM

2) Revert back to the very start of the vanilla game, perhaps this time base SEE on RotWK from the start? But... omg... not very appealing as it would mean 1-2 years to even get where we are now! It would also be VEEERY hard to replicate all of Sûl's awesome trimmin of the AI, which is sorta the pinnacle of Beta 4.5! *sighs*

Where did you get 1-2 years? While it may be tedious work, it is certainly possible. Sûl's coding may be a little bit disorganized, but that can be fixed.

Naz, don't let your emotions get the best of you. It is completely understandable that you are frustrated and upset. I would be too given the circumstances. I believe, however, that the problem is not only fixable but also beneficial to this mod. While the coding issues seem to be an inconvenient issue right now, it was something that need to be addressed sooner or late. This is the perfect opportunity to address the problem. Look at the issue as a solution... not a problem.

That's why you're the Believer of Hope ;) My deepest respects. Emotions are a mysterious factors of life; as they control our inner being and lives around the soul. Frustration and anger instills fear, guilt, hatred, or regret. Hope, faith, loyalty, confidence,and perseverance are all you need to succeed. Think positive Naz :p ;) If you succeed, SEE will be like a long lost heir to the throne of T3A community, sort of like Aragorn. And that's an encouraging thought;)

Edited by KingElessar2384, 22 November 2010 - 03:05 AM.

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#19 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 05:29 AM

I don't think restarting the code would be a terribly big issue.
It may even be a good way to remake the mod into something better.
Starting from scratch now would mean the mod would be better organised and that fewer bugs will happen because the modders would be more experienced.
It's something I had to do for LW about a year in.
With luck you could get the mod back up and running in a couple weeks better than ever maybe.

Take this oppurtunity to fine tune your desires for the mod set them out clearly,write them down and work to achieve the goals.
You may find that a restart might help rejolt the mod.
If needed I could do the more advanced stuff for the mod maybe finish Sul's little projects.

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#20 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 06:17 AM

2) Revert back to the very start of the vanilla game, perhaps this time base SEE on RotWK from the start? But... omg... not very appealing as it would mean 1-2 years to even get where we are now! It would also be VEEERY hard to replicate all of Sûl's awesome trimmin of the AI, which is sorta the pinnacle of Beta 4.5! *sighs*

Where did you get 1-2 years? While it may be tedious work, it is certainly possible. Sûl's coding may be a little bit disorganized, but that can be fixed.

Naz, don't let your emotions get the best of you. It is completely understandable that you are frustrated and upset. I would be too given the circumstances. I believe, however, that the problem is not only fixable but also beneficial to this mod. While the coding issues seem to be an inconvenient issue right now, it was something that need to be addressed sooner or late. This is the perfect opportunity to address the problem. Look at the issue as a solution... not a problem.


Trust me Rob38 I tried.... It can't be reorganized for when I do I get stupid errors without explanation.

And yes Radspakr, when RG has laid the basics Ill start over first by reorganizing the vanilla codes and then finishing faction by faction. And I also found out that Sul found it fun to put unessacary complicated coding in, I wont be doing this. Ohhhh and Naz, when we get to the polishing I may be able to salvage some of Suls AI coding. :p

Edited by Ridder Blauw, 22 November 2010 - 06:22 AM.





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