5 replies to this topic

[Therevenage]

I was playing a fellow called "Seven-PC" goes by the name TROY-PC ingame and we played a couple rounds ( 4 to 6 ) and i got ahold of the metagame for this mod

However there was something lackluster something that just didn't fell right.

During this game and games before it there seemed to be a few broken gameplay mechanics that id like to point out
This is strictly my opionion and id like to see what you other people think about it and please comment and critize

In this replay it is me (GLA assault) vs (China flame)

 Remixesclation.zip   24.96KB   42 downloads

i added a replay as a visual to what i was talking about.

The problem is the match begins we play with the default EA settings of 10000$ with the exception of the fact we are on a 3 player map (as i could not nudge him to go on a regular map) as well as tournament mode on.

During the game it become instantly noticeable that it felt like I had alot of "Why even bother units" on the side or units that just don't fit in to the game well

The Low cost of the infantry made me able to immediaty engage combat and assault my enemy , what I took notice to is the cost of those units , 200$ for a 5 rebels? why not I just spam the hell out of them they cost "nothing"

and that i did as shown in the replay , later down i thought since the infantry serve so well as cannon fonder and that I could create as many as I want without any money problems there was no real need to create a tank meatsheild and when I realized my enemy was Deploying defenses I just brought in the pounding artillery as quickly as I could.

i took notice to the cost of vechicles to , 400$ for a artillary vechicle , only double the cost of my infantry for a brand new vehicle, why not I just spam those to.

And that I did , a near continues spam of rebels and Artillery cannons , and because they were so cheap i almost never had to worry about money , so 5 mins in the game all of a sudden money isn't a issue at all, unit production is extremely easy and extremely cheap.

But this is not the only thing that bothered me , it was that Spamming only Rebels and Artillary where working extremely effective against anything that he threw at meanything be it infantry or tanks or artillery the like.

it seemed as if i didn't have to invest in any other vechicle or aircraft because infantry essentially take most of the Job roles



I appreciate the mod leaders work on this mod I really do , but I fell as though alot of the units lose there place in game, or are all useless all together and just a "Extra" to play with when your bored.

I would like to play with a higher skilled player if thats possible to get some more accurate results but this is what i've seen from gameplay so fair and it seems a little broken to me?

Tell me what you guys think of this.

and i don't mean to offend creator of this mod i just really fell as though the gameplay could use some work.

[olli]

The PvP elements of the game haven't really been focused on, BUT in the current WIP the testers have, a lot of this is nerfed and its PvP focus is being brought back. The next public version, along with a huge amount of new content, will be far more balanced.

1. Infantry rushes are now not possible early game. This is because you can only build squads after Tech 1. By this time, your enemy will be easily able to resist them with their own basic units/infantry/defences.

2. The bast way to counter infantry is infantry. You may have been playing a low skilled player I don't know, but artillery kill infantry, Infantry Kill infantry. Tanks kill artillery. Infantry kill tanks. Etc. It's all about cost per unit and how easy it is too kill it which makes the balance.

3. Money making is now restricted in Remix. This means a player is FORCED to spread out and take control points, because the amount of income from a supply dock is fixed. Secondary money makes; internet centre, supply drop pads are also limited. China is only allowed 1 internet centre (with 8 hackers), USA is only allowed 3 supply pads. (Need to check on black markets). However, each general also has their own unique way of making money. This mainly comes from their generals powers which allow certain buildings to generate cash, or something similar to the old GLA Cash bounty. So this makes the player choose wisely, and limits the amount of money available to spam units.

4. Assault general is all about "assault." In the next public release, he is having a specialised "Siege" tech tree. He is orientated around Artillery. That is why it is so cheap. Surprisingly, Tank general has cheap low tech tanks, and infantry general; you've guessed it has cheap infantry. It's how it works.

5. Try playing with some other generals against the same general you played against. (Flame). You'll get different results, I assure you. Make sure it's against a semi-skilled player.

6. From all my years of playing the mod, I can assure you, infantry do not take all the roles. It may have in this instance, but I think you are a little biased from your experience. Play a large map. Small maps do limit the amount of actual "combat" that can occur. Try a 6 player size map or something.

6. A polite notice, when making points; please don't put them in bold, we can all read words normally and it doesn't make your point any clearer, it just makes it harder to read and feels like you are shouting.

[Pendaelose]

In short, I agree completely. That's why the next version has these changes...


I've adjusted the cost and build times on all infantry, and squads now require Escalation 1.

"Money makers" are now restricted and their cost/balance is equal for all generals (barring income from general's powers)

Anti-Infantry weapons are now more effective.

Artillery is now stronger vs infantry but weaker vs tanks.

Most tanks have a larger guard radius to make them more useful.

All generals have dedicated effective anti-infantry defenses.


These changes address much of what you mentioned and are all in the next release.

Edited by Pendaelose, 10 February 2011 - 06:28 PM.

[Therevenage]

"6. From all my years of playing the mod, I can assure you, infantry do not take all the roles. It may have in this instance, but I think you are a little biased from your experience. Play a large map. Small maps do limit the amount of actual "combat" that can occur. Try a 6 player size map or something."

to play on a 6 player map I would need 6 players...

im speaking from experience with Tons of Zero hour experts and masters online as well as a HUGE influence in the community not in just revora, but just about every mod out there. (Nearly 6 years , 2 years playing competitively online consistency)

I beta test/balance for alot of popular mods out there and I like to discuss gameplay mechanics alot and take in other peoples opinions and try to find a perfect place not just for 1 forum but for everybody out there.

For example:

If one person thinks the secondary economy shouldn't be limited while the other thinks it should , why not compensate and make the secondary economy Tier 3 or More expensive , that will please those who believe secondary economy spamming ruins the point of expanding and will satisfy those who Don't want it exactly limited.
/example
Its not the small maps that limit the combat that can occur , its the weaker player that does I learned that the hard way, breaking into many arguments with superior players online.

(Essentially its a larger learning curve that alot a players don't bother learning because of the difficulty and it appears that larger maps emit to larger combat which in a way is true but to say you can't do the same thing on a small map is not true)

but by all means if 1v1s aren't ment to be played on "Small" (i found that map rather large to be honest) maps then just make maps like tournament desert(The MOST commonly played map online) larger , I have no problem with that especially if thats the way the mod is designed.

But i think alot of the balance can be fixed without having to limit anything. alot of people i talk to say "When they put a limit on a certain kind of units in a mod in a game its because the game mechanics within are broken"

I Would like to discuss more and ill be posting more replays Im interested to hear everyones peice.

It is very nice to see most of the gameplay mechanics being fixed for the most part in the next version

Edited by Therevenage, 10 February 2011 - 08:17 PM.

[olli]

"6. From all my years of playing the mod, I can assure you, infantry do not take all the roles. It may have in this instance, but I think you are a little biased from your experience. Play a large map. Small maps do limit the amount of actual "combat" that can occur. Try a 6 player size map or something."

to play on a 6 player map I would need 6 players...

im speaking from experience with Tons of Zero hour experts and masters online as well as a HUGE influence in the community not in just revora, but just about every mod out there. (Nearly 6 years , 2 years playing competitively online consistency)

Sorry mate, but no you don't. That is the max limit of the map, not what has to be stuck to. The larger the map, the more room there is for spreading out, taking the map, larger armies etc. And that always equates to larger, more intense battles. Think of the micro management. I saw the map you played on in your replay, and funnelling units across small choke points isn't really a viable experience for you to base your opinions on. Of course units are going to be overwhelmed!

You might have experience with other mods, but this isn't anything like standard ZH combat. The mod does everything to avoid original ZH combat, so try to have a fresh mind.

I beta test/balance for alot of popular mods out there and I like to discuss gameplay mechanics alot and take in other peoples opinions and try to find a perfect place not just for 1 forum but for everybody out there.

Ok.

For example:

If one person thinks the secondary economy shouldn't be limited while the other thinks it should , why not compensate and make the secondary economy Tier 3 or More expensive , that will please those who believe secondary economy spamming ruins the point of expanding and will satisfy those who Don't want it exactly limited.
/example

It can make it pretty moot if a middle ground is met. It's sometimes far better not to sit on the fence and make it "balanced" by going in the middle and having the best of everything. If you want to try and implement something core to game play, what's the point of giving a player the "easy route" (stay in base, unlimited internet centres and drops pads) and a "harder route". I think I know the choice every time. It's just adding diversity, it was pretty silly how players could make millions of dollars sat in a small space on the map, confined to their small territory, rather than earning more by owning more. Own and conquer more land, you get more. This means less land that is available to the enemy and more resources and land for you. After all, it is command and conquer.

Its not the small maps that limit the combat that can occur , its the weaker player that does I learned that the hard way, breaking into many arguments with superior players online.

This is also true, which is why you need to pick your opponent. Playing with a low skilled player and finding that you can overwhelm them with infantry and then claiming "Infantry take all the jobs!"... Hey, it isn't surprising, and why I think you need to find a more skilled opponent who can give you a better match and make you re think.

but by all means if 1v1s aren't ment to be played on "Small" (i found that map rather large to be honest) maps then just make maps like tournament desert(The MOST commonly played map online) larger , I have no problem with that especially if thats the way the mod is designed.

I was just saying that at the moment, the focus wasn't on testing the PvP balance, it was getting all generals up to a good, public playable standard; playable in the sense of Comp stomp and PvP (with out the fine tuning); you can play with friends and destroy their base. It will do for the time being until the more important issues of finishing the generals are completed. Even so, Pendaelose has been tweaking here and there as he sees fit, and from community and staff input. Don't get me wrong, 1v1 on a small map definitely has a place, but when it hasn't been fine tuned, dont be surprised if you are playing with a low skilled player and you can destroy them at T1 with infantry.

But i think alot of the balance can be fixed without having to limit anything. alot of people i talk to say "When they put a limit on a certain kind of units in a mod in a game its because the game mechanics within are broken"

Nothing is going to be "limited" as such. The money making is becoming more diverse and fitting to Remix gameplay; a change from ZH (Build unlimited money makers, what fun.) A turtle player can still turtle and make money and stay within a small base, that will always still be there. But you know what they say; the best defence is offence. This can be reflected in teching/ranking up quickly and making a shed load more money on the way.

The infantry squads are being balanced, not limited, by making it available later in the game.

I Would like to discuss more and ill be posting more replays Im interested to hear everyones peice.

It is very nice to see most of the gameplay mechanics being fixed for the most part in the next version

Sure thing. People will be offering their opinions!

And Thank you, you will get to play with it soon!

[Pendaelose]

It's worth note in the current public version there are specific generals who were underpowered vs large infantry rushes. I've improved their anti-infantry and toned down the infantry rush in the game play... but it's worth note that by Tier 2 infantry swarms are very easy to destroy, even in the current version. A large infantry push just doesn't work vs flame or toxin generals, but vs certain others it can be overwhelming, even for a good player.

It's an old issue now though. The current version handles early infantry better than the previous.