34 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

I wish I could bring you better, more happy news, being Valentine's Day and all...

For those of you that have been following SEE (for a long or short period of time), I guess if your devotion for this mod is high enough, you're well aware of all the numerous problems we've had in trying to see this mod to the end. There have been countless of efforts and an equal amount of halts due to a stock pile of never ending problems. These halts all have something in common - they're all releated to one thing: Sûlherokh's incredibly complex coding that basically noone can match (deal with). And without my former Head Coder (Sûl), the task at hand is like trying to climb Mount Everest in your underwear. The history of SEE is scattered around several topics and some of them have went haywire after clashes between me and some forum members with personality traits incompatible with mine

The last time I described a halt in production, the topic was accused of being over dramatic, so I'll try to be less dramatic, less emotional and less sensitive this time... and just give you the news like a Terminator asking for Sarah Connor Seriously though - I'm really sorry to have to tell you that the last effort to finish SEE also failed!

That is not "last" as in "final", but last as in what we had lined up for now. The problem - ever since Sûl left SEE and the modding scene for the second time - have always been to find his replacement. I lost track of how many people have contacted me offering help. But most of them never get to anywhere beyond the PM/mail they sent. If I see no real evidence of serious modding experience, die hard dedication, loads of motivation and genuine interest in the SEE mod and Lord of the Rings concept (movies in particular)... I see no point in even trying. Some guys have gotten further and we have actually started working together coding SEE, but all 5-6 have failed pretty fast. Seeing Sûl's advanced, complex and very MESSY coding is enough to scare most coders on the run. There has only been one coder that have been able to (even pretty easily) deal with Sûl's coding, and that's Ridder Geel. However, due to the never ending work load of his own mod; the RC mod, Ridder Geel's skills won't matter in the long run as there's no time for him to work on SEE, with me.

His younger brother, Ridder Blauw, is basically and almost as skilled as Geel despite his very young age. So the "modding force" is truly strong in that family indeed, and Blauw offered to step in when Geel realized he didn’t have the time needed! But once again, there was no real time for Blauw either to work on SEE as he's also involved in his brother's mod. When the Ridder brothers offered to help the SEE mod progress, I guess it was out of a combination of being extremely helpful, non selfish and with a slight will to flaunt their skills. Whatever the reason was, it was naturally very welcome to me, as the Mod Author and Team Leader of a shattered team consisting mostly of people that have come and gone though a period of more than 4 years now... Along the way I even lost some of the members closest to me in strange conflicts I don’t even understand as to this day.

Other forum members told me "don't put your trust in the Ridder boys", and some even trash talked and flamed them to some extent. Personally I don't have that many personal opinions about that many people here (with a few exceptions). And if someone that seems to be very skilled and has a grand portfolio of work to display is willingly offering help, I'm not gonna miss the chance to finish this “Life time achievement” - regardless of what others think of the person/s offering this help. Now, I was fully prepared that it was just a chance and that it might fail as well, like all other attempts before. So when it finally did, around Xmas, I wasn't really that surprised. Disapointed? Yes! Annoyed from all the COUNTLESS of hours, days and weeks I spent chatting with them compared to the relatively small leaps in production? Yes! Am I angry with them, or in Blauw in particular since he was the one that did most of the hysterical chatting, immense planning and eager coding? No, I appreciate the effort! I’m annoyed at the situation, not at any person. Well, except maybe a little at Sûl for leaving the mod in this state...

Besides the problem of finding a capable coder, there also the problem of finding equally skilled modelers. There are several really talented ones out thee, but basically ALL of them lose interest after 1-2 models. I lost the two most recent modelers this way:
- Valaquenta10 (made the new Fountain Guard)
- Elrond99 (assembled the new Easterlings)

So, once again I stand before some obvious options and some possible outcomes:

1) Cancel the mod? If you belong to this category, I hope you haven’t even read this far. I don’t need negativism and I never have. I will never cancel the mod as in “it will never be worked on again”. I’ve considered this before and realized it’s not a real option.
2) Start over from scratch? We tried this, and Ridder Blauw grew tired of the immense coding needed pretty quickly. Also, since EA’s codes is in a truly messy state of their own, starting over would mean you have to “clean” EA’s codes as well as Sul’s codes! Not a very appealing option, even if it WOULD be for the best, if possible. We’d need months or more with free time and die hard devotion. It’s just not there!
3) Hire (!?) a coder? When I hopefully have the funds needed to “motivate” – that is HIRE – help, I’d go look for possible candidates. There might be a slight possibility of getting Sul “back” this way, but I’m not sure. Working for money is not the same as working out of interest, motivation and dedication. Nothing can beat that! But… if we ever wanna see this mod to the end, hiring help might be the only solution left. Especially to go on working on this messy WiP beta. Most people realize that money makes the world go around, and the vast majority of people going to work in the morning, does it for the same reason as most others – to see a pay check at the end of the month. There’s not a hell of a lot of folks that get to work out of sheer joy, so spare me any moral debates on this please

I think option #3 is the only reasonable option left to even consider now… after we yet once more, hit this new dead end!


And finally… why don’t I do it myself? Well I WOULD if I COULD:
- My life is pretty different now, from when I started SEE many years ago! At the time I was unemployed and at the moment I have several jobs, assignments and projects IRL!
- I haven’t coded in years myself and thus my skills are lacking!
- I could never match Sul’s coding, even if I tried to. Not now and not even when I was a decent coder!
- Motivation comes and goes, especially with progress and setbacks! Currently, there’s no progress (again)!


So, there you have it! Looong post I know, but considering my lack of presence lately and the recent events of some great progress reports, I felt this was necessary. I will NEVER give up on SEE. But don't hold your breath for any new beta/version soon. That's just the sad reality of it all

Edited by Nazgûl, 14 February 2011 - 06:04 PM.

[Námo]

Well, I admire your tenacity ... good luck, my friend.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

You know what I'll say it,Sul was an average coder it's always pissed me off the pedestal you've put him on.
Perhaps one of the big reasons behind SEE's problems.

It's messy coding but nothing overly special and it's usually workloads that get the better of the volunteers.
RG with RC,myself with LW.


Sorry that's just been bugging me.

The only thing SEE needs is dedication,if someone was to just take the reins and put in effort it could pull through.
This mod lacks leadership.
With these constant reiterations on the mod's future not helping,make a call and stick with it.
None of this not alive,not dead thing.

My advice for this mod is simply hold it together for a bit longer pull everyone together and get a final release done.

Naz this isn't a personal attack, instead it's more just me giving my opinion on things.
The team takes it's lead from you so what you decide now will essentially decide the fate of the mod.

[Nazgûl]

Dude... there is no team left

[KingElessar2384]

I know this isn't going to help at all but, recently Sul has been on and off the forum, while you're gone. I don't know why but I checked his profile status: he was recently on about a week ago (2/7/011). That's all I'm saying.
Thx

[njm1983]

Well... heres my take. Im a business owner and honestly if we take a look at SEE from a business owners perspective heres what I see.

1. Theres an immense workload to do for coding, and not even the owner of the mod is willing to put concentrated effort into it. (regardless of the reasons)

2. What is left of the team is looking for a strong leader. No offense Naz but when coding stops you disappear too, then without your presence on the battle field the troops just wander off. Including myself - no mod, no maps period. I dont want to spend my free time mapping for something that nobody is dedicated to.

3. In all fairness the future of the Mod has been waiting for someone to do the things necessary to continue it. My dad has a saying for people who just like to wait around and keep those around them waiting: "Do something, even if it isnt right". I think youre letting all the factors involved with the mod influence you to the point of indecision.

Naz though we dont have the closest relationship, I will go so far as to say we are friends. I cant in good conscience allow a friend to flounder around in their own muck. Lets make a decision and be done with it, for better or worse.

[Arthadan]

I saw this coming. I've seen inexperience managing a software development (that's what a mod is in the end):

- No regular backups.

- No backups of each landmark/stable version (release).

- No clear code and no documentation (that's what allow a coder to be replaced, a clear explanation of what his code does!)

Please, take this as friendly advices if you're going to go on with this.

At this point, I'd start over making sure I have coders able to make a clear code and documentation for it (I know it sounds like an extra work nobody wants to make, but that's the very reason the mod is halted now). Specially if you hire a coder, do this and you could change him anytime.

Now, changing the topic. Is there any complete guide to learn coding for BFME2? I've seen some tutorials here and there, but nothing clear, complete and organized.

[Trailhog250]

Well... seeing as you read my other topic and you answered my question here. I'll give you some advice. (Accept it or dismiss it as you will)



Here is how I see your options:

1. Cancel SEE! You know as well as I do this simply isn't something you will do, you will not consider this. You've come too far, and you've overcome other difficulties. You're not willing to give up now, you'll wish you had finished it somehow if you do.

2. So, Sul was on? If he was on consider contacting him and asking if he would consider coming back. This mod needs him in it's current state.

2A. There you go Sul is back, the kinks are being worked out and the mod is making progress.

3. Well, let's get to work. This is sadly about the only most logical and likely choice left. Simply start over, get yourself another coder or two willing to do it over again properly with notes. This is the one even you seem to lean to. Do you have the conviction to SEE it through?

3.A Allright, now where does this go? You and your fellow coders are starting over and after sorting out EA's codes SEE is on progress looking forward to a release mid-end 2011.

4. Ok, how much $$$ will that be? If you don't think SEE will ever be 'proper' again if it's restarted coding wise and Sul is not willing to come back then maybe the $ idea would work. (If it's at a reasonable price of course )

One thing you must DO! If you lack motivation, this mod will not make it. Even if the 'right' choice is made this mod cannot make it if you cannot commit to it. (I am NOT saying you lack motivation and you're not willing, I'm just trying to point out the obvious. Many coders/directors would have given up in your case take pride in that Naz)


-Trailhog250


Hope my opinion was helpful, in the near future I may look into mapping and post my maps/pics in the 'Spam' section and may even Map for this mod if the head mapper thinks I'm good enough. But no promises, but I would like to help contribute in what way I can...

[KingElessar2384]

@TrailHog250: Sul= Last Active: February 7 2011 12:59 PM, last least that's what it says in his status;)

[Trailhog250]

Exactly, Naz your really should send him a message. Ask him if he's willing to lend hand again, you might have to wait a week or two before a reply but hey


If he's not then get him to tell you one way or the other. Yes or No

Once that is established, (if he says no) then go ahead with another plan. Either 'fixing' the mod. Or start over and let time heal the wound with a healthy supply of notes and info. That is pretty much the whole thing there, you need to go ahead and find out where Sul stands right now.

[Kwen]

I think it's up to YOU to do what YOU want to with YOUR mod. Modding shouldn't be a job, this is a hobby. We all came here in search of the same goal (for the most part). And that is to create the BFME series how we envisioned it.

If you think the mod is done. Then so be it, let it be done.

If you think it's worth spending more time on, go ahead.


You shouldn't be modding for other's pleasure. Granted, it's a great feeling when someone else loves the game you made it. But still, this is your call.

---------

Didn't you get the mod working again? I understand Sul's coding is complex and messy, but have you considered selecting something he's done that needs fixing, then try to remove and re implement it? You might find an error somewhere.

Surely it isn't so messed up you can't even remove it?

[Trailhog250]

Aye, every bit of it true. But if you'll note Naz isn't ready to 'cancel' the mod. He knows there is still hope, and that if 4.7 pops up out of the wild blue he will be very surprised at how many people still follow and enjoy this mod. He's just considering his options, and he posted this to let us (pesky ) fans to give him feedback. (I presume,) He's going to accept and dismiss advice as he sees fit.


But I wish you all the more luck Naz, here's one more LotR fan who enjoys this mod and looks forward to a 4.7! And I won't stop following this mod until it's finished or it's... (canceled )

And I sincerely hope it's not the latter. If it takes a few months to fix that won't bother me in the least. (Though what comfort to you that is I do not know...)

[Námo]

... it's up to YOU to do what YOU want to with YOUR mod ...

qft, cf.:

"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"

@Kwen: 'Nazgûl' is in fact plural (Black Speech) and as such gives a slightly different meaning to those YOU and YOUR.

[EggyDan]

Naz, I agree with what you say; if you want a new (head) coder they will need skill, dedication and time, and lacking in any one of these three will likely doom the project to fail eventually. Not wanting to sound like a pessimist, but finding such a coder to take up the reins of this huge project is no easy feat as I'm sure you have found. However, I don't think you should have to resort to money to hire a coder. In my opinion, this goes somewhat against the principles of this community, which enjoys modding as a hobby. It's up to you of course, whatever path you choose I'm sure the SEE followers will support you.

All I can really say aside from this is, good luck! As other members have said, the success of the project also depends on your motivation. If you are de-motivated, and shroud the SEE coding job in negativity, possible candidates may be shunned away!

[Trailhog250]

Well SEE has survived this long, if it was another mod that was just 'there' it would be in the 'archived' section by now . I still have hope for SEE in the future. A very good project, and it has come a long way and overcome quite a few difficulties.

[Imdrar]

I just had a look at some of SEE's INI files, and yes, shame on me, it's been the first time I studied that code, since I'm actually working with RJ's files. But I got stunned by what I saw there.
The whole code within the files just looks ... weird, like it has been shattered several times and then recomposed without any structure or order. It really hurts my eyes.
Now I'm wondering, is this Sûl's very special way of coding? Or has something maybe just entirely broken my download? If it's supposed to look the way it currently does, it's probably not the difficulty level of the code that scares away possible helpers, but rather the arrangement of the code in general.

[Unknown]

I love SEE. Please don't stop. The only problem I had was when I play the campaign, it takes so long to win because you made the costs higher and timing different but it's still neat during skirmish games

[Ridder Geel]

You did open the ini with notepad++ right? otherwise yes it looks insane

[The Best Guest]

As always Chris, I am still here simply lurking in the shadows, unfortunately I have never been able to assist you more then beta testing and a few mapping assignments that NJM and I worked on. I really don't have any advice to offer you except, if you choose to continue do it because your heart is in it, not because you are too stubborn to give up.

Always,
TBG

[m@tt]

Modding is a hobby, therefore I don't agree with Option 3 being a realistic option. Sorry.

If you can't continue the mod, you can't continue the mod. SEE was a brilliant mod that was downloaded and played by thousands of people - it's done huge work for the BFME modding community, so it's not like cancelling it will mean the mod has been made in vain.