10 replies to this topic

[Elrond99]

Hey guys

I thought that might be an interesting discussion topic, since whenever a new Lord of the Rings game comes out, many people complain about the excessive use of magic and magic users, but on the other hand there are many magic users in Middle-earth

The Wizards:
Ok pretty obvious here

The Elves:
Foresight (Elrond, probably many High-Elven Lords too)
Incredible healing abilitys (Elrond)
The Ability to use the power of nature (Elrond´s mastery of the river Bruinen9
Songs of Power (Finrod, Gildors Elves)
Ability to go into the world of shadows (Glorfindel and other High-Elven Lords)
The ability to look into someones heart and read his/her wishes and desires (Galadriel)
Crafting magical weapons and items (Swords of the Noldor, Palantiri, Silmaril, the Great Rings,..)

The Dunedain:
Foresight
Crafting magical weapons and items (Swords of the Barrow-Downs)
As far as I know, the Witch-King was already a sorcerer while he was still Dunedain, before becoming Ringwraith

Black Numenoreans:
Black magic and dark arts taught by Sauron


So what I wanted to ask you/discuss with you is what would you accept as true to lore and what not, which abilities should/could the different groups from above have in games/mods and which shouldn´t they and why? Why is everyone so upset when they see fireballs, is it because fire is the element of Morgoth, meaning a Tornado like in BfME2 is a better solution?

I´m looking forward to hearing your opinion

[Námo]

Very interesting subject, indeed.

[Vortigern]

You say the powers of the wizards are 'pretty obvious'. I disagree. What exactly is it that Gandalf and co. can do? Radagast hangs out with animals, Saruman hangs out in Isengard making uruk-hai, but I assume he did something else before that whole escapade kicked off, and Gandalf is friends with the eagles and the hobbits and steals horses. So what are the powers of the wizards?

[Námo]

You forgot, that Gandalf also is addicted to smoking 'pipe-weed'.

[Vortigern]

Ah yes, that most noble and worthy of powers. How dare I overlook it?

[_Haldir_]

Saruman also had so-called "magical" powers over his voice. Both in carrying it to various locations (e.g. the gate of Isengard) and over the minds of others (e.g. Theoden and co. after Helm's Deep). And i think Radagast/Saruman were also disguise themselves in physical appearance (i'm talking more than a fake moustache and a different cloak). I think Gandalf did show off some blasts and such against the balrog, and i seem to remember him using his light to scare off the nazgul in the books, but i could be wrong.

As far as the original question, i think the "magic" in LOTR is much more subtle and less show-offy than what the word 'magic' seems to bring to mind (think Harry Potter). Any magic seems to mostly be subtle and combined with craftsmanship, songs, nature, healing and the vague sense of foresight that some characters seem to have. That's why things like tornados, fireballs, sunflares and other offensive, elemental type abilities don't seem to fit well with the lore. Obviously there's a degree of gameplay which comes with the BFME games, but powers like wizard blast or foresight are probably more lore-compliant than things like rain of fire, or tornado.

As far as I know, the Witch-King was already a sorcerer while he was still Dunedain, before becoming Ringwraith

Where did you hear that? I didn't think there was any specific history of who the nazgul were before they became the ringwraiths (besides Khamul being an Easterling).

is it because fire is the element of Morgoth?

Again, i don't think Morgoth had an 'element' as such, but used darkness/deceit/infiltration more than anything elemental.

[Námo]

Ah yes, that most noble and worthy of powers. How dare I overlook it?

The most noble and worthy of powers was the blowing of smoke-rings (Gandalf and Thorin). We both did overlook that.

As far as the original question, i think the "magic" in LOTR is much more subtle and less show-offy than what the word 'magic' seems to bring to mind ...

I agree to that.

An interesting opinion on the subject from an essay at rec.arts.books.tolkien:

Upon even the most cursory reading of Tolkien's tales of Middle-earth, it is obvious that the world he describes is fundamentally different from our own. This distinction is not simply due to the presence of nonhuman characters or unfamilliar lands, for science fiction can supply the same and we still think such tales at least remotely possible. No, the difference is Magic, and we must come to some understanding of that magic before we can truly understand the world that Tolkien has given us.

To help myself find that understanding, I have attempted to classify all of the seemingly magical things and events in Middle-earth into groups of common character. (However, I have for the most part avoided drawing conclusions based on the actions of Ainur; godlike beings who gave shape to the world should probably not be expected to obey natural laws.) After much consideration, I have found that (in my mind, at least) most of them fall into one of three general classes.

The first class could be termed "technological": things that would not be entirely out of place in our world. The Doors of Moria could almost be built today using computer voice recognition, and the power of Saruman's voice could be nothing more than great skill with hypnosis. Depending on how far one is willing to stretch, it is possible to include a substantial fraction of the magic of Middle-earth in this category.

The second class consists of fundamental differences between the natural order of things in Middle-earth and in our own world. For example, although the details are never explained, we know that in Middle-earth there exist two worlds, one of the Seen and one of the Unseen (humans apparently exist almost exclusively in the former; the ringwraiths primarily in the later). Similarly, we know of several examples of true prophecy in Middle-earth, such as the dreams of Boromir and Faramir, Glorfindel's prophecy that "not by the hand of man will [the Witch-king] fall", and the Words of the Seer that so clearly foresaw the Passing of the Grey Company.

The third and final class encompasses all of the "active" magic that we see in Middle-earth. The Rings are perhaps the most obvious members of this category: they were created specifically to have a pronounced (and very real) effect on the world around them. The Mirror of Galadriel also belongs to this class, as do Finrod's "songs of power" against Sauron. (Gandalf's word of Command to hold the door of the Chamber of the Mazarbul is also a superb example, but as he is at least technically an Ainu I have for better or worse deemphasized his actions while drawing my conclusions on this topic.)

Having recognized these divisions, I find that the first ("technological") category has little impact on my thoughts about magic in Middle-earth. It simply does not differ enough from my experience to give me insight into the workings of Tolkien's subcreated universe. Therefore, productive discussion must focus on the other two.

In some sense, it is the intrinsic magical nature of reality in Middle-earth that puts it squarely in the realm of fantasy. Speaking of dragons as we are speaking of Middle-earth itself, Tolkien says in "On Fairy-Stories,"

"The dragon had the trade-mark Of Faerie written plain upon him. In whatever world he had his being it was an Other-world."

In this same sense, Middle-earth simply IS magical; asking how much magic it contains is a nonsensical question.

On the other hand, we may well ask just how different the intrinsic magic of Middle-earth makes it from our own world. It does not take long to realize that the lives everyday human beings in Tolkien's creation differ little from the patterns we see in our own history: the men of Bree sport no seers or sorcerers, and the Rohirrim trust in their valor in combat without the aid of magical lances and swords. Even their superstitions differ little from those seen in our world, although they certainly seem to hold more truth. All in all, it seems that the magical nature at the core of Middle-earth hardly affects our kind at all; its effects are seen most often in others more closely attuned to it.

One more example of a difference in the "natural order of things" deserves mention here. On their way back to Rivendell after the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, we are told that Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, and Gandalf spent many nights conversing about ages past, but "they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind." In his essay "Enquiry into the Communication of Thought" (published in Vinyar Tengwar 39), Tolkien discusses this ability at some length. Apparently, it was common to all thinking beings in Middle-earth, for we are told that

"Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the [body], over which most men have small control by the will."

While this ability might seem to be "active magic," its universality and lack of a "cost" for the user place it squarely in the realm of intrinsic differences between Middle-earth and our own experience. Note that in agreement with the conclusions earlier, Tolkien's comments (those quoted and others in the essay) make it clear that this ability did not have a substantial effect on the lives of most human beings.

This brings us, finally, to what may be termed "magic proper": the active use of abilities that would never be seen in our less colorful world. In "On Fairy-Stories," Tolkien discusses a distinction that he makes between different types of "active magic" (and compares them to ordinary mortal art):

...the more potent and specially elvish craft I will, for lack of a less debatable word, call Enchantment. Enchantment produces a Secondary World into which both designer and spectator can enter, to the satisfaction of their senses while they are inside; but in its purity it is artistic in desire and purpose. Magic produces, or pretends to produce, an alteration in the Primary World. It does not matter by whom it is said to be practiced, fay or mortal, it remains distinct from the other two; it is not an art but a technique; its desire is power in this world, domination of things and wills.

What Tolkien calls here "Enchantment" is clearly the ability that he ascribes to Elf-minstrels, "who can make the things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those who listen." It strikes me that this may be the same distinction that Galadriel makes when she comments that mortals speaking of magic "use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy," although her magic is clearly not the pure, artistic Enchantment of which Tolkien speaks above.

Despite the fact that Enchantment seems to be very closely associated with the fundamental nature of the Elves, it is rather difficult to find it directly in the books. Quite a bit of the Elf magic that we see could well be derived from it, but the published stories speak almost exclusively of magic involving at least some attempt to influence the Primary World. Both the Mirror of Galadriel and Finrod's song-spells of illusion against Sauron could fall into this category of Enchantment-derived magic.

There remain, however, quite a few examples of magic in Middle-earth which seem to have nothing to do with Enchantment. These examples, as noted above, all involve very direct manipulation of the Primary World, either by physical control or mental compulsion. In the case of the Great Rings, the primary purpose of this manipulation seemed to be the slowing of time (or at least of its effects). On several occasions, the Nazgul seem to have the ability to exert enormous pressure on Frodo's will, almost to the point of forcing his actions. After the capture of Dol Guldur, Galadriel apparently used some intrinsic power to "[throw] down its walls and [lay] bare its pits." On a lighter note, both Gandalf and Thorin display in The Hobbit a truly magical degree of control over their smoke rings.

Some insight into the nature and operation of this sort of magic can be gleaned from Tolkien's short story "The Faithful Stone," published at the end of his discussion of the Druedain in Unfinished Tales. After performing a clearly magical act involving a stone statue, the Drûg says,

"Alas! If some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts."(11)

(followed by Tolkien's footnote:)

(11)"These tales, such as The Faithful Stone, that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to thier artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring."

This discussion seems to apply quite generally to any magic which affects the Primary World in Middle-earth: any such act, whether by Vala or Elf or Man, requires an investment of a part of one's self before it can be performed. What this "self" may refer to is certainly an open question, but it is clear that the various races of Middle-earth have very different levels of control over it.

With all of this discussion behind us, it is easier to draw conclusions about magic in Middle-earth, and in particular, about how "common" it might be. Again, I will break my summary up into three parts, corresponding to the three classes of magic discussed above.

First of all, the "technological" examples of magic in Middle-earth point to some reasonably common ability (at least among Elves and probably Dwarves) to create things whose operation is entirely beyond the understanding of virtually all human beings. It may well be that these things are creations of "active magic" as discussed above, but perhaps at a lower cost of "self" than the clearer examples presented there. Whatever their origin, they are not altogether uncommon: Bilbo obtains toys from Erebor to distribute at his Birthday Party which are "clearly magical." It is reasonable, then, to assume that some amount of practical magic is available to those who knew where to look.

Moving on, I observed earlier that the intrinsicly magical aspects of Middle-earth, while always present, play a very limited role in the everyday lives of the human beings who live there. For one reason or another (perhaps because humans typically "have small control over [their bodies] by the will"), humans simply are not generally even aware of these aspects of thier world. However, the situation for the Elves is apparently very different: their world is constantly filled with things that humans would call magic. It is even possible that the Elvish ability of Enchantment (discussed as "active magic" above) is another manifestation of Elves' closer connection to the magical nature of their world, and not "active" magic at all. In this sense, the amount of magic in Middle-earth really depends on whom you ask. As a last note in this connection, it seems natural to expect more supernatural events in a world that is still inhabited by beings who had a direct hand in its creation.

Finally, it seems that "active magic" (other than Enchantment) is also a universal ability. (At the least, the Ainur and many Elves have it without question, and the Druedain prove that it is not utterly beyond the capacity of our kind.) However, I believe that its use is very limited, due to the investment of "self" that inevitably goes along with it. Those who are able to practice it are surely all to aware of the degree to which they become bound to their creations, and of the dissipation of their innate "power" into other people and things. It is for this reason, I suspect, that we see so few clear examples of active magic in Tolkien's universe.

In conclusion, I have come to believe that magic (or at least the potential for magic) is a universal aspect of Middle-earth. It is this easy observation which allows to immediately understand that Middle-earth is fundamentally different from the world in which we live. However, its presence does not revolutionize the lives of those who live there: either like the Elves, they are a part of the magic, or like so many of the humans in the tale they are largely unaware of it. Finally, regardless of how common the ability may be, any decision to change the world by magical means is a significant one. The active use of magic is uncommon precisely because only the strongest motivations will make its use worth its price.

It should be noted, that this essay was written before the publishing of Tolkien's Morgoth's Ring, which contains a lot of good information on this subject.

Edited by Námo, 19 March 2011 - 12:22 PM.

[Námo]

From Unfinished Tales: The Drúedain

The Faithful Stone

On a time there was a Drûg named Aghan, well-known as a leech. He had a great friendship with Barach, a forester of the Folk, who lived in a house in the woods two miles or more from the nearest village. The dwellings of Aghan's family were nearer, and he spent most of his time with Barach and his wife, and was much loved by their children. There came a time of trouble, for a number of daring Orcs had secretly entered the woods nearby, and were scattered in twos and threes, waylaying any that went abroad alone, and at night attacking houses far from neighbours. The house hold of Barach were not much afraid, for Aghan stayed with them at night and kept watch outside. But one morning he came to Barach and said: "Friend, I have ill news from my kin, and I fear I must leave you a while. My brother has been wounded, and he lies now in pain and calls for me, since I have skill in treating Orc-wounds. I will return as soon as I may."

Barach was greatly troubled, and his wife and children wept, bat Aghan said: "I will do what I can. I have had a watch-stone brought here and set near your house." Barach went out with Aghan and looked at the watch-stone. It was large and heavy and sat under some bushes not far from his doors. Aghan laid his hand upon it, and after a silence said: "See, I have left with it some of my powers. May it keep you from harm!"

Nothing untoward happened for two nights, but on the third night Barach heard the shrill warning call of the Drûgs – or dreamed that he heard it, for it roused no one else. Leaving his bed he took his bow from the wall and went to a narrow window; and he saw two Orcs setting fuel against his house and preparing to kindle it. Then Barach was shaken with fear, for marauding Orcs carried with them brimstone or some other devilish stuff that was quickly inflamed and not quenched with water. Recovering himself he bent his bow, but at that moment, just as the flames leapt up, he saw a Drûg come running up behind the Ores. One he felled with a blow of his fist, and the other fled; then he plunged barefoot into the fire, scattering the burning fuel and stamping on the Orc-flames that ran along the ground. Barach made for the doors, but when he had unbarred them and sprang out the Drûg had disappeared. There was no sign of the smitten Orc. The fire was dead, and there remained only a smoke and a stench.

Barach went back indoors to comfort his family, who had been roused by the noises and the burning reek; but when it was daylight he went out again and looked about. He found that the watch-stone had gone, but he kept that to himself. "Tonight I must be the watchman," he thought; but later in the day Aghan came back, and was welcomed with joy. He was wearing high buskins such as the Drûgs sometimes wore in hard country, among thorns or rocks, and he was weary. But he was smiling, and seemed pleased; and he said: "I bring good news. My brother is no longer in pain and will not die, for I came in time to withstand the venom. And now I learn that the marauders have been slain, or else fled. How have you fared?"

"We are still alive," said Barach. "But come with me, and I will show you and tell you more." Then he led Aghan to the place of the fire and told him of the attack in the night. "The watch-stone has gone – Orcwork, I guess. What have you to say to that?"

"I will speak, when I have looked and thought longer," said Aghan; and then he went hither and thither scanning the ground, and Barach followed him. At length Aghan led him to a thicket at the edge of the clearing in which the house stood. There the watch-stone was, sitting on a dead Orc; but its legs were all blackened and cracked, and one of its feet had split off and lay loose at its side. Aghan looked grieved; but he said: "Ah well! He did what be could. And better that his legs should trample Orc-fire than mine."

Then he sat down and unlaced his buskins, and Barach saw that under them there were bandages on his legs. Aghan undid them. "They are healing already," he said'. "I had kept vigil by my brother for two nights, and last night I slept. I woke before morning came, and I was in pain, and found my legs blistered. Then I guessed what had happened. Alas! If some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts."

[Unknown]

In the dictionary, the term magic refers to:
noun:
1)
a) the supposed art of influencing the course of events by the occult control of nature or of spirits.
b) witchcraft
2) conjuring tricks
3) an inexplicable influence
4) an enchanting quality or phenomenon

[Elrond99]

Yeah I know that text about the Druedain, which makes me think even more about that topic, as I somewhere read that there is Wizardry and Sorcery in Middle-earth and while both use spells, Wizardry gains it´s power from the user himself, a power which normal men don´t have, only those with Elvish blood. Sorcery on the other hand can be used by everybody, as long as he has the needed training, since sorcery gains it´s power from Morgoth´s Corruption of the Arda