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#1 Emperor of the East

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 11:39 PM

There is a website called http://realelvish.net which talks about the meaning of names in Middle earth. It says that the Dwarven names are Norse and the Rohirric names are Anglo-Saxon, and that the Númenórean names are a made-up language. Using that system, anyone could give the Haradrim Arab-African names, and give the Easterlings Turko-Persian names. Or we could give them common tongue names.

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#2 Námo

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 11:54 PM

... the Númenórean names are a made-up language ...

Made by Tolkien!

... anyone could give the Haradrim Arab-African names, and give the Easterlings Turko-Persian names ...

That's pure and simple nonsens.
... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
... a star shines on the hour of our meeting ...
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#3 Vortigern

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 12:15 AM

The Dwarven and Rohirric names are indeed influenced by Old Norse and Old English respectively, but very few of them are directly lifted. [Þéoden], for example, simply means 'king' in Old English. However, the Old Norse references are generally more subtle. For example, Glói was a dwarf in Norse mythology; simply add an /n/ on the end and you have a Middle-Earth dwarf. Interestingly, Gandálf is also a name given in Snorri Sturluson's Catalogue of Dwarfs, an appendix to the Poetic Edda. The /álf/ ending translates as 'elf' or 'elven', which in Norse mythology is basically a catch-all term for non-human beings that weren't gods or directly associated with gods (e.g. Valkyries).

Actually, Turko-Persian naming practice applies more to the names of orcs than Easterlings, now that I think about it. Look up a few names from that part of the world and you'll probably see what I mean.
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#4 Emperor of the East

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 12:37 AM

Pure and simple nonsense? Okay... I was just trying to establish Easterling and Southron languages the same way Dwarvish and Rohirric were founded: taking names from a roughly similar real life culture. Except the Norse people weren't four feet tall and they didn't live inside mountains. They did live in the northeast of Europe, though. And Erebor and the Iron hills are in the northeast of the Europe-shaped part of Middle earth (the part we see on just about every map ever made. I was trying to keep the names within their geographic connection between Earth and Arda. But I guess using Adûnaic and Westron is also a good idea. After all, Westron is the universal language. And according to the Atlas of Middle earth, Westron is the predominant language of Harad, Rhûn, and Khand. The Atlas also says that Easterling and southron languages were still spoken in the Third Age. So it would make sense if Tolkien used indigenous North African languages to make a Southron tongue, and indigenous Central Asian languages to make an Easterling language. Since the Haradrim we know come from a vaguely North Africa like part of Middle earth, and the Easterlings we know come from a vaguely Central Asia like part, according to the Atlas, which is a reliable source because the author cites her information as being from the books and lore, and the estimates of troops in battle for example are realistic and the measurements are consistent with the books and movies.

"You cannot know anything; only suspect. You must suspect to be wrong. To have overlooked, something, anticipate."

 

~Malik Al-Sayf, from the original Assassin's Creed from 2007

 

Yes, I do live by this advice to the best of my ability.


#5 Námo

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:11 AM

... it would make sense if Tolkien used indigenous North African languages to make a Southron tongue, and indigenous Central Asian languages to make an Easterling language. Since the Haradrim we know come from a vaguely North Africa like part of Middle earth, and the Easterlings we know come from a vaguely Central Asia like part ...

Tolkien did make several (incomplete) languages, spoken in Harad and Rhûn (Adûnaic and various 'Mannish Tongues', respectively)

Tolkien's Middle-earth is mythological and NOT our historical world. You can't superimpose our world on Middle-earth, i.e. expand Middle-earth with Peoples, Languages, Cultures and Realms that did not exist in Tolkien's own writings. See this post:

SHORT VERSION:

Tolkiens world was 'mythological', not 'historical'


Tolkien's world does not just 'represent' our historical world, it is unique in its own right. You can't just project our world back on Middle-earth in a general way. The only thing you can do is to take some vague inspiration from our world, but only as far as Tolkien himself did that. One example is the Gondorian culture, which was inspired in a very limited sense from the old Egypt (helmets of the Tower Guards and Rath Dinen), but Gondor did definitely not 'represent' Old Egypt. Etc. ...

The only languages that did 'represent' indigenous Middle-earth languages was:

  • Modern English for the Common Speech
  • Old English for Rohirric
  • Old Norse for the tongue of the Northmen (also used by the Dwarves for 'outer' names)

... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
... a star shines on the hour of our meeting ...
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#6 Emperor of the East

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:58 PM

... it would make sense if Tolkien used indigenous North African languages to make a Southron tongue, and indigenous Central Asian languages to make an Easterling language. Since the Haradrim we know come from a vaguely North Africa like part of Middle earth, and the Easterlings we know come from a vaguely Central Asia like part ...

Tolkien did make several (incomplete) languages, spoken in Harad and Rhûn (Adûnaic and various 'Mannish Tongues', respectively)

Tolkien's Middle-earth is mythological and NOT our historical world. You can't superimpose our world on Middle-earth, i.e. expand Middle-earth with Peoples, Languages, Cultures and Realms that did not exist in Tolkien's own writings. See this post:

SHORT VERSION:

Tolkiens world was 'mythological', not 'historical'


Tolkien's world does not just 'represent' our historical world, it is unique in its own right. You can't just project our world back on Middle-earth in a general way. The only thing you can do is to take some vague inspiration from our world, but only as far as Tolkien himself did that. One example is the Gondorian culture, which was inspired in a very limited sense from the old Egypt (helmets of the Tower Guards and Rath Dinen), but Gondor did definitely not 'represent' Old Egypt. Etc. ...

The only languages that did 'represent' indigenous Middle-earth languages was:

  • Modern English for the Common Speech
  • Old English for Rohirric
  • Old Norse for the tongue of the Northmen (also used by the Dwarves for 'outer' names)


Does this mean no one can add in weapons that were not in Tolkien's writings, because Peter Jackson added in the gunpowder bombs despite no evidence of them existing in the lore.

"You cannot know anything; only suspect. You must suspect to be wrong. To have overlooked, something, anticipate."

 

~Malik Al-Sayf, from the original Assassin's Creed from 2007

 

Yes, I do live by this advice to the best of my ability.





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