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#21 Hostile

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:42 PM

"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." ~ Mark Twain.

#22 Beowulf

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:53 PM

I hear what you're saying, but then I always see so many idiots confirming my opinion. The whole outlook of the country seems moronic. I saw Obama's speech... has this whole thing for the last ten years been for revenge? That's a terrible thing for a country to chase. How could Bin Laden's death be ANY consolation for a lost family member? Has the USA been ravaging the middle-east all this time for just one man? Also don't say "justice" has been dealt, because it hasn't. Death isn't a punishment, and it does go against your constitution not to give him a 'fair' trial. Is the country really willing to break it's founding laws just for this? One persons life is never worth another in any case.

It's moronic to eliminate a problem? It's moronic to have a sense of justice in the world? That some madman cannot just send people to knock down a nation's monuments without some backlash? The man was accountable to no one and that's far more dangerous than anything we've done. Besides, what else would it be about? Are we really supposed to sit on our hands when we're attacked? Hell no, we do something about it since we're the only country who will.

And yeah, I'd say it's justice. Death is the ultimate punishment. He's not breathing and now he's tossed out at sea. Fitting end to the ultimate game of Hide And Seek. And, if you think for one minute that he would have received a fair trial, you're sadly mistaken. Nobody would have given one. And even if there was one, it would be a media circus. Fuck all that bullshit. A few bullets to the skull and the problem is rectified.

Oh, and don't forget, the targeted assassination of another isn't new. That whole thing... been going on for centuries and I think your loony continent pioneered the way for future assassinations so stop hiding behind your false civility.

Is there? On obvious villain is far less evil than a deceptive one who's allowed to run wild all over the globe without check. The crowds of people celebrating in the US is just scary. Any nation or ideology that can whip up such fervour is as dangerous as anything.

A madman accountable to no one, interpreting the word of Allah as 'kill all infidels' is far more dangerous than those who seek to eliminate such threats. Herein lies the problem for my country: we do something, everyone complains; we do nothing, everyone complains. We're stuck in a lose-lose situation so no matter what it is we do, everyone bitches and moans about it. But it begs the question. Are we really the only country left with a sense of morals? Of right and wrong? To know that a madman conspiring to murder innocent people is a bad thing? Where the fuck is your spine, Europe?

Is there? I don't really see it. They're both purely opinions, personal beliefs. In Al Qaeda's opinion those acts were just. Actually religion makes it more justifiable for those who do believe in such things. It's only the majority that makes it acceptable.

Who's side are you on anyway? Are you actually saying you're okay with fanatical people running around on the loose, planning attacks and carrying them out? And besides, religion does not make violence against completely innocent people more or less justifiable. It actually makes it worse since that's a misinterpretation of the words in whatever holy book they read.

Of course I'm not advocating 9/11, I just don't see the correctness of either side.

And I don't see any correctness in your point of view. In fact, I'm just going to say you're wrong.

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#23 Puppeteer

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 06:15 PM

Right. To a lot of people the Iraq, Afghanistan and other Middle-Eastern Wars were entirely about avenging the citizens that were murdered on 9/11. We didn't want this fight. We still don't. But come Hell or high water we're going to win it, and taking out that snake is just one of the many steps we'll need to take in accomplishing that goal.

Note that I'm speaking not of my opinion (that being who-gives-a-fuck) but rather that of 90% of the people around me.

How can you win? What is America fighting? An ideology. An IDEA. America is waging war against insurgents of an extreme wing of a religion, and there's little demarcation between the extremely religious and anti-Western radicals. There's no distinction. How can you win when you don't even know what you're fighting? The Taliban? Al-Qaeda? Pakistan? Islam? Which bit is America contesting? Surely if they're fighting for peace, why not go through the proper international channels - the UN? Why act unilaterally - this isn't the Cold War? How will you know when American wins?
The whole thing's absurd. The War on Terror is doomed from the start, and bin Laden's death is a minor consolation detracting away from the inevitable that America has no idea what it's fighting, or why, or to what effect. Vengeance is only one minor factor, contributing alongside a whole myriad of heterogeneous factors.


We might be somewhat to blame for these events through the things that have happened the last 100 years, but that's like blaming nature for making it rain on a house which we didn't build the roof on in time. incompetence is our sin, theirs is malevolence.

I'd say totally to blame. We're out of the Cold War, but you'd be a fool to deny its legacy. A legacy which America cannot contend with - the Cold War polarised nations, systems and ideologies, and now in a world without distinct 'sides' or 'blocs', where national interests have been replaced by international efforts, where domestic policy is globalised into foreign policies, and where the rapid deterioration of the Caliphate in the 20th Century has led to a lot of disenfranchised Muslim radicals, whose treatment under its European colonists and American neo-imperialists has totally disillusioned them with the West. The combination of a historically nationalistic Islamic faith and America's penchant for creating its own bitter enemies has left Western liberal democracies in a quandary, one which I doubt will be resolved for centuries. Only through diplomacy (that's right America, compromise) and through the moderate Muslim leaders will the conflict be resolved. Much like the Cold War. Without Gorbachev, the USSR would not have been prepared to continue dialogue and attempt to reform it self (which led to its dissolution) - Andropov and other Soviets were only prepared to continue détente, not reform itself. And if Reagan had continued to be a myopic fool and compromised even less, then the Soviet Union may not have dissolved when it did. Diplomacy and moderation are the only means of resolution.

#24 mike_

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 06:26 PM

Yes. Yes to all of what you all are saying. Yes.

#25 Puppeteer

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:59 PM

Yes. Yes to all of what you all are saying. Yes.

Good point, well made.

#26 mike_

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:14 PM

Thank you, that's much obliged.

#27 duke_Qa

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:17 PM

I'd say totally to blame. We're out of the Cold War, but you'd be a fool to deny its legacy.


When I say "somewhat" I mean that we are not the only people with with ambition and incompetence the last century. We might have been the least incompetent and malevolent one since we somewhat "won" the cold war... but inhuman acts were done by everyone. It was not a single player campaign... But we can at least admit that bad things were done and it won't be the end of our "way of life"/world as we know it.

Remember that the Arab world and the middle east was a mish-mash of West vs East nations. Syria being one of the common examples of a former soviet ally. It was not just a bunch of western colonies that we raped and pillaged after ww2, there were spies, assassins and money thrown into the pot by both sides. Basically a Middle-Eastern Tropico 4 game.

Diplomacy and moderation are the only means of resolution.

95% of the time yes. 3% after that are heavy economic sanctions, Then the last 2% is military intervention. Some times logic is not the dictators strong suit. Sometimes a big stick is the best moderator against repressive regimes that have gone too far.

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#28 Phil

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 08:18 PM

"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." ~ Mark Twain.

Nice quote. Quite sums up how I feel about this.

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#29 olli

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:25 PM

To be honest, I'm with Ash on this one. I don't believe they've actually killed him.

It was done in a typical American Cack-handed way...again.

The worlds most wanted man, the actual King of a global terrorist cell, the man America has been tracking for over 10 years...all the money, the resources, the lives that it cost and we are supposed to believe that "...the special agents encountered resistance. They fought back. He died from a bullet to the head. His body was buried at sea. Thanks very much and good night".

The only source of this has come from the CIA, and I would never believe a fuckin' word that comes from an agency that, by their very nature is devious, cunning and shrouded in secrecy.

Sure Obama gave the world a speech; they trust the good, honest wholesome American man.

But,

No pictures. No videos. No nothing. When Saddam was captured; Headline pictures across the world. Even when his sons were killed we had pictorial evidence the next day. When he was executed it was live on TV, and all over youtube. Osama supposedly gets killed? We have nothing, apart from a faked picture of two years ago.

http://photoblog.msn...e-photo-is-fake

The White house are debating whether or not to release the picture... as it might be a bit offensive and gruesome. Yeah. Right. Just buying a few days of valuable time to get everything sorted, stories straight and make it all believable? Sounds more like it. Until I see any evidence, I wont change my mind. Showing a video of a burial at sea isn't good enough either. Any bearded ragtop could look like him on a low definition video, which I suspect it would be. I want to see every wrinkle on his face in high def.

I wholeheartedly believe that his body, (if in fact he is really dead and it really was Osama, that's another point... for another time)is still in American possession. No doubt about it. I'm not buying the crap about "Muslim customs needed to be adhered too... buried within 24 hours of death... burial at sea is ok if the grave may be defiled"

Since when did America suddenly give a shit about Muslim customs and values? Especially on the worlds most wanted terrorist, who brought thousands of deaths upon their country.

It just seems like a big cover up and too suspicious. Oh...I just checked the calender and Election Day is coming up soon in the States.
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#30 olli

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 01:03 AM

On a more serious note, did anyone see the picture of the guy... who actually looked a lot like Bin Laden...with the top left half of his head shot off...which is in line with what's been reported...specifically the top left half of his head?

It was in the link to 4 chan that Mike put up. If it's not there, I saved it anyway for you to have a gander. It might be a good look alike, or just another bearded terrorist shot up. Who knows...
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#31 mike_

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 01:59 AM

From what I can tell it's been revealed to be a clever Photoshop that someone shopped Osama's beard onto the face of a dead man. Someone on 4chan did it.

#32 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 06:12 AM

Remember that the Arab world and the middle east was a mish-mash of West vs East nations. Syria being one of the common examples of a former soviet ally. It was not just a bunch of western colonies that we raped and pillaged after ww2, there were spies, assassins and money thrown into the pot by both sides. Basically a Middle-Eastern Tropico 4 game.

I would totally play that.

I've always thought that Osama couldn't be as powerful as he is made out to be.
At least in the last 10 or so years.
I would be hard to impossible to run a complex operation from a hide away.
Osama would have had more of a morale boosting role evading capture for so long.
He would have had been a low priority in the war after a while which probably accounted for why it took so long to get him.

From what I've heard they had originally planned to capture him but couldn't so he was killed.
A choice they had to make.
It is a bit weird that there were no photos,apparently they were to gruesome to show to the public :S
They'll probably reveal more details in time.

I don't think it's a hoax because if it were false there would have been another video released by now by AQ.

The US may still have the body though they'd want to do DNA testing to prove it's actually him.

Edited by Radspakr, 04 May 2011 - 06:13 AM.

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#33 duke_Qa

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:02 AM

Yeah, I suspect if it was fake then they would say "Haha, that was our CLONE-BABY-Osama! here is Osama live and well, drinking your milkshake!". No, I suspect the game is changed now. Give me one good reason why they would want to keep him alive beyond information he probably does not have. It quickly deteriorates into epileptic trees conspiracies.

I can guess that the top of the skull flew off, a bit like when JFK got assassinated. That's some footage I still find somewhat gruesome, so I can imagine they are a bit hesitant to publicize it. It will become a picture just as popular as Che t-shirts, and I wouldn't really want to see Kennedy-getting-his-brain-blown-out on t-shirts and newspapers everywhere. Not because I personally would get extremely sick, but I'm in my mid20s and grew up on violent videogames, not some 6-year-old whose most violent experiences with life is the pokemon tv-series or something :sleep:

Edited by duke_Qa, 04 May 2011 - 10:03 AM.

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#34 olli

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:09 PM

From what I can tell it's been revealed to be a clever Photoshop that someone shopped Osama's beard onto the face of a dead man. Someone on 4chan did it.


It looked a bit photoshoppy, but it's the most convincing one I've seen!
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#35 Vortigern

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 01:44 PM

Al-qaeda statement 'confirms' bin Laden's death.

So, what new conspiracy theories can we get out of this? By the way, I moved the inverted commas around in the article title because I thought it was more fun that way.
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#36 Námo

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 09:13 AM


GO AMERICA GO

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#37 Hostile

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 11:03 PM

Does that mean GO! America! like my favorite soccor team? or does it mean in support of GO! away Americans... :)

#38 some_weirdGuy

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:10 AM

@ all the people being silly conspiracy theorists:

Why would they wait till now to say they killed him if they really didn't? More over, can you imagine how hard it would hit the fan if they said they'd killed him now but then he turns up again in a little while? You'd have the extremists going psycho with religious-fervour declaring Osama as a literal messiah returned from the dead, resulting in a frenzy of support and attacks.

I don't think USA would risk that just to.. what? make themselves seem more competent? declare revenge as being served? make the war seem more worth it?

They shouldn't release those photos and stuff as 'proof' cause that will result in more ridiculous behaviour(you know it will), it won't stop the conspiracy nutters cause they'll just say its fake, and no doubt it would be used to demonise America by a number of groups.

And to be honest, I don't really see how those photos are anyone's business. Just because he was an evil terrorist group leader does not somehow make it your business or give you the right to check out photos of his corpse.

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#39 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 01:35 PM

Well said, SWG.

For my part, I'm disinclined to think that Osama didn't have it coming. Sure, it could be construed as murder, and legally it might have been. Then again, it could also be thought of as capital punishment. How long of a jail sentence would he be serving if he was tried and convicted for each individual death at the World Trade Centers? Hell, he'd probably die halfway through the trials...
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#40 Elvenlord

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 04:43 PM

Or, you know, it could have been he was killed during the firefight. Oh wait, that's what happened? Doesn't that make the issue of bringing him home for trial irrelevant?
Yes, yes it does.

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