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July 12th Update: Gondor Spellbook


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#41 Námo

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:41 PM

Logically, if the description of Pippin's armor applies to all the men of Gondor, then the high-crowned (tall) helms of the citadel guard should as well.

Please remember, that "the high-crowned (tall) helms of the citadel guard" got their form from the Crown of Gondor, because the Tower Guard were the kings personal guard (later personal guard of the steward); as such, this would not apply to all other Gondorian unit. Logic defeated, sorry.

Also could you please tell me were it says that Gondor and Rohan trade armor for horses.

I don't know if my word carries any credibility for you, but I'm quite sure I've read that, too.
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#42 Swan_Knight93

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:34 AM

Nertea said

"hauberk of steel rings", with a surcoat overtop (from the description of Pippin's garb, which is stated to be the livery of the elite Tower Guard)


As this is the only specific description provided, and the soldiers in question are not Tower guard then it seems to say that the description of the tower guard is applied to the soldiers that are in question, the soldiers of Gondor, and knights of Dol Amroth. But it is opposite with the helms. I am not saying that all the soldiers of Gondor should wear Citadel or Tower Guard helms, but that if they don't then they shouldn't wear the same armor then either. I am not saying Nertea is wrong but it seems to me he is using a double standard.

As for the trading of horses, Boromir says in the Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, Chapter 2, Page 294,
"Not this at least, that they will buy their lives with horses. They love their horses next to their kin." I think that armor is less important that their lives.

(I know he is specifically talking about selling them to Mordor, but it still stands that they would not trade their horses willingly).
Also in The Return of the King, Book 5, Chapter 4, Page 88, Gandalf says,

"Let it be of mounted men. In them lies our brief hope, for in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided: he has few horsemen."

To which Denethor responds,

"And we also have few."

That doesn't sound like there is much of a horse/armor trade to me. I could be wrong, if I am please tell me. :thumbsupsmiley:
Like I said before it is Nertea's (and the team's) mod, so do what you want.
Now I am just trying the prove that I am not utterly and completely wrong :facepalm:, and that reading the Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and the Children of Hurin numerous times hasn't left me completely in the dark about Middle-Earth lore.

Edited by Swan_Knight93, 18 July 2011 - 03:09 AM.


#43 Swan_Knight93

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:07 AM

Sorry for posting twice, I was just reading The Return of the King and found something very interesting. Book 6, Chapter 4, The Field of Cormallen, Page 249,

"Behind the seat upon the right floated, white on green, a great horse running free; upon the left was a banner, silver upon blue, a ship swan-prowed faring on the sea; but behind the highest throne in the midst of all a great standard was spread in the breeze, and there a white tree flowered upon a sable field beneath a shining crown and seven glittering stars."

Sorry, but I just thought I would throw that out there.

#44 mike_

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 05:06 AM

They didn't use to call me a Loremaster for nothing.

In the "Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth", page 366 Note 11:

The Rohirrim had the advantage in being supplied by the metal-workers of Gondor.


While this does not cite the trade of horses for armor, it does support that Rohirric armor (if not arms as well) were gotten from Gondor smithies. And as Tolkein says himself...

The Rohirrim were not "medieval", in our sense. The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chainmail of small rings.


...then we can suppose that the Men of Gondor supplied the Rohirrim with chain-maille. Now, I ask you; would they really make full suits (or at least shirts, also known as hauberks or surcoats (which are mentioned too many times to count in the text by both Merry and Pippin, Gandalf and Denethor, Aragorn, Theoden, Gimli...)) of such equipment for their allies and for them alone, or would they simply generate a large enough surplus of their own goods for use in trade with the Rohirrim? Accepting these quotes in tandem results in a logical conclusion that chain-maille was the principal armor of the Men of both Gondor and Rohan.

Additionally, according to this quote Denethor himself wore chain-maille:

"He stood up and cast open his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and girt with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver."
-Page 800, The Siege of Gondor, Book V, The Return of the King.


So why would he bother with protecting (and arming) himself if he was going to use inferior equipment? Yes it was most likely for show, but wearing chain-maille while plate would be available (as others are positing) would not make much sense, and so it is easily feasible that the soldiers of Gondor wore chain-maille just as their Steward did. I will concede that plate elements were in use - such as helmets and Prince Imrahil's infamous vambraces - but full chest-and-back-plates are out of the question. You could also argue that the Guards of the Citadel (Denethor's own servants) wore black chain surcoats, and so he was simply doing as they did, but in my opinion Denethor would have done well to appeal to all of his citizenry rather than just his own personal guardsmen by going so armored.

Regardless, back to the topic at hand: the Knights of Dol Amroth. They appear to be the sole fighting cavalry force in Gondor; the only other comparable unit would be the errand-riders of Minas Tirith, who were messengers and couriers, not fighters. In this description of the gathered Men of the Fiefdoms, the Knights of Dol Amroth are presented as the most professional and well-geared of those present:

"Leading the line there came walking a big thick-limbed horse, and on it sat a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men, well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor...the men of Ringlo Vale behind the son of their lord, Dervorin striding on foot: three hundreds. From the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen. From the Anfalas, the Langstrand far away, a long line of men of many sorts, hunters and herdsmen and men of little villages, scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their lord. From Lamdedon, a few grim hillmen without a captain. Fisher-folk of the Ethir, some hundred or more spared from the ships. Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin with three hundreds of gallant green-clad men. And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundred of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came."
-Page 753-4, Minas Tirith, Book V, The Return of the King.


Interestingly, there is a great variety in the types of equipment and dispositions of the Men of the Fiefdoms - we have "well-armed" Men of Lossanarch, who are presumably maille-clad like their leader; in contrast are the famous archers of Morthond and the Blackroot Vale; irregular militia from the outer reaches of coasts; and the household Men of Golasgil, Lord of Langstrand, a term not used except for the sworn Guards of the King of Rohan, possibly hinting at a "rougher" feel for them when compared to the more "civilized" Men of Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth. Regardless, this shows that despite being very near to one another geographically there was a GREAT difference in the styles and quality of battle equipment in the realm of Gondor.

If you're going to use Middle Age Europe as an example, then think on this: despite fitting within a thumb's space on a map, the equipment found in Italy, Germany and Spain was all incredibly vast - let's say we're looking at the year 1500 CE. In Italy you have your mercenary bands of Conditierri - sallet helm-wearing, rapier-and-dagger wielding sellswords who favored full plate armor made skin-tight. In Germany you would have the Landsknecthe, who fought with massive beidenhander swords, pikes, and were great supporters of gunpowder weapons (something which the Conditierri would execute prisoners of war for using as they made warfare "unfair"). Armor for them would have been the articulated Gothic-style plate that we all know and love. As for Spain, it was divided into Moorish and Christian Spain - the Moors were relict Muslims slowly being driven out through the Reqonquista who used scale-maille and lamellar armor, powerful steel crossbows known as arbalests (IIRC, those were more popular with the Knights of Malta tbh) and curved slashing swords like the kilij and yataghan. Those Moors were fighting against the Spaniards, who also used lots of gunpowder weapons (with more focus on personnel handguns than field artillery like the Germans did) but with a greater reliance on cavalry than any other Western European power at the time.

What does that have to do Gondor's fighting-man disposition in the Third Age of the Sun? It's an example for how geography matters surprisingly little in how different armor designs and styles developed back in the day.

And as such, the Knights of Dol Amroth make fine sense looking how they do in this mod.

Edited by mike_, 18 July 2011 - 06:09 AM.
forgot the Spanish!


#45 Námo

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:11 AM

The "gallant green-clad men" of Pinnath Gelin, ruled by Hirluin the Fair, Lord of the Green Hills, were fighting on horses at the Battle of the Pelennor fields.
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#46 mike_

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 01:44 PM

Ah, that's right. Thanks Namo :) Though they were using their bows to shoot at the Mumakil, yes? The impression that I got from the text was that they did not usually fight from horseback, but saw an opportunity in the battle and grabbed all the horses they could find to better fight the enemy.

#47 Swan_Knight93

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:28 PM

I will accept that there could have been trade between Gondor and Rohan, but not of horses, so that should not have been mentioned in the argument :rolleyes:, unless it mentions specifically that Gondor acquires a reasonable amount of horses over a long period of time. :thumbsupsmiley:
One point I am trying to prove is also that if , in the book, there is no plate armor, and you are designing units "based of the book", then it looks strange to have them standing next to units that apparently do not follow the book. In my humble opinion, either you follow the books, or you follow the design of the movies. The biggest thing I would like to see is that each culture has a cohesive look to them so you can right away look at any unit and say,"oh, look they are from Gondor" and so on.
The talk has been about mail, but mail is not always chain-mail, there is also plate-mail that Tolkien could be referring to.
The bowman of Morthland were the ones said to be shooting at the mumakil, and where Duilin and Derufin died.
The lord of Pinnath Galen,Hirluin is said to have rode with the other lords of the fiefs the the aid of the Rohirrim durring the battle of the Pelenor Fields.

Edited by Swan_Knight93, 18 July 2011 - 02:58 PM.


#48 Námo

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:22 PM

In my humble opinion, either you follow the books, or you follow the design of the movies.

This is a false contrast.
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#49 Spartan184

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 04:26 PM

Wow you guys totally took over this thread :p


 

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#50 Swan_Knight93

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 05:57 PM

How is it false. It just kind of makes scene that you would want all units to look like they belong in the same world. But really it is not important in the grand scheme of things.

Edited by Swan_Knight93, 18 July 2011 - 05:58 PM.


#51 mike_

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:39 PM

That just means that we all have different perceptions of personal canon. It's very much possible to merge book and film concepts and descriptions, though that may not fit in with your idea as what is canon and what is not.

#52 Lauri

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:54 PM

In my humble opinion, either you follow the books, or you follow the design of the movies.

In my humble opinion, do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.

Basically meaning that you do your own interpretation, like Nertea did, and others just have to deal with it.
Nertea had a vast amount of influence taken from the work of Games Workshop on their Dwarven warhammer models. Because GW did an rather good job on those dwarves, among others!
Nertea had a vast amount of influence taken from the movies, if not going all the way to have it as close to 100% the same as possible. Because WETA did an amazing job!
Nertea had influence taken from the books when\if\because they are properly described. Because JRR Tolkien is an awesome writer.

If you want to call this mod's art an abomination, a freak of nature, just say so. We won't get mad.

Edited by Lauri, 18 July 2011 - 08:56 PM.

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#53 Swan_Knight93

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:44 PM

Forget it, never mind. We will just have to agree to disagree. Personally I really do love about 99.9% of this mod, which is still a whole lot more than a heck of a lot of others out there. This turned out to be way more of an involving conversation than I ever intended, but it was actually a little fun to be able to talk Lord of the Rings with people who have a clue. :thumbsupsmiley: (Most of my friends don't) :facepalm:

#54 Vulcan

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:12 AM

For the Beacon building, perhaps you should consider providing a small resource amount for the building? Since econ plots are so precious in BFME1, using one up without receiving any money boost may discourage many from ever building one during a game. Perhaps give the same resource amount as a castle keep?

I think that's a very good idea.

#55 Guest_spartan1879_*

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 05:06 PM

I know this is off topic but I have to ask: When you guys polish up the Rohan side will you add more Ent moddles? I've always been anoyed by limitation off 2 types.

#56 Mathijs

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:55 PM

In my humble opinion, do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.


I laughed.

#57 Nertea

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:31 AM

I know this is off topic but I have to ask: When you guys polish up the Rohan side will you add more Ent moddles? I've always been anoyed by limitation off 2 types.

Not unless I really want to. There's another in the files as I recall so I guess I could do that, but adding new ones isn't something I'm that interested in doing.

For the Beacon building, perhaps you should consider providing a small resource amount for the building? Since econ plots are so precious in BFME1, using one up without receiving any money boost may discourage many from ever building one during a game. Perhaps give the same resource amount as a castle keep?

Ok, sounds good.

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#58 Spartan184

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 02:32 AM

Shouldn't it be more like you either want the farm for money or a Beacon for Reinforcements ;) Even though it will be a small amount I think it should not give resources.


 

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#59 {IP}Solstice

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 03:27 AM

Well it's only 5 resources it's not like it's going to be a major game changer, just a little somethin.
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#60 Spartan184

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 03:33 AM

I know but it bothers me for some reason.


 

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