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#21 Ghostrider

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 03:08 PM

No big deal boss, you've already replaced my former Star wars space battle mod. Only thing I think I'd like more, is if it was a Clone Wars Era mod, but from what (admittedly little) I understand there, the cannon is a little fuzzy. Course, I still prefer Phoenix rising over the CWE mods I've come across. For how I personally view the universe at large, it's just an all round superior package. Actually, technical problems with one of those is what led to someone suggesting your mod, and I'm very glad he did.



Yes - but the Clone Wars are so limited. 3 years and almost always the same techology, just massive numbers of troops. However, just think of the incredible technical developments that take place afterwards, especially when you hit the New Republic era. I personally like the Historical era campaigns, starting 18BBY, but one or two upgrades and wow - CW era tech just gets pasted. And I always get a real buzz after the launch of my first Imperial-class!

#22 sevrun

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:53 PM

Never really got into the New Republic, but you have jogged my memory as far as a question that's been kinda bugging me. Are the Stormtroopers clones or aren't they? I always thought they were, and recently found things that say yes, no, of course they are! and they couldn't possibly be, etc. And your buzz from the Imperial, I get from the Venators. Just something about the style of them I really like.

#23 Zeta1127

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 07:48 PM

Yes - but the Clone Wars are so limited. 3 years and almost always the same technology, just massive numbers of troops. However, just think of the incredible technical developments that take place afterwards, especially when you hit the New Republic era. I personally like the Historical era campaigns, starting 18BBY, but one or two upgrades and wow - CW era tech just gets pasted. And I always get a real buzz after the launch of my first Imperial-class!

The Clone Wars era is also a canon nightmare, and most of the staples, especially starships, are already present in PR. I also love the technological development in the Historical era campaigns.

Never really got into the New Republic, but you have jogged my memory as far as a question that's been kinda bugging me. Are the Stormtroopers clones or aren't they? I always thought they were, and recently found things that say yes, no, of course they are! and they couldn't possibly be, etc. And your buzz from the Imperial, I get from the Venators. Just something about the style of them I really like.

The New Republic era is technological development at its best. A lot of cool tech came out of the later stages of the Galactic Civil War, from the New Class Modernization Program, its pride and joy, the Nebula-class Star Destroyer and its sister ship, the Endurance-class fleet carrier, to the new Star Defender class of warships that rival a Star Dreadnought, the Viscount-class Star Defender and the Strident-class Star Defender, numerous developments occurred. Stormtroopers, until the Battle of Endor, were clones, supplemented with birth-born recruits, before being solely recruits with the occasional attempt to create a new clone army, like during the Thrawn Offensive.

Edited by Zeta1127, 23 October 2011 - 07:53 PM.

"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
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#24 Stormhawk

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:00 PM

Personally, I would love it if Mediator, Viscount and Strident class ships eventually made their way into the mod.

Can you imagine a duel between an Executor class vessel and a Viscount? I'm getting shivers just imagining it. Although I'm pretty sure my computer would just explode trying to process that many projectiles.

On the subject of new stuff and the Clone Wars, since the 18BBY era Rebels are mostly ex-Seperatists, it'd be very cool to throw in some Providence and Lucrehulks into the rebel tech tree to match the Acclamator and Venator class vessels respectively for the Rebels. I believe it is canon that the Rebellion utilized both classes of ship in small numbers at least.

#25 Zeta1127

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 09:47 PM

Personally, I would love it if Mediator, Viscount and Strident class ships eventually made their way into the mod.

Can you imagine a duel between an Executor class vessel and a Viscount? I'm getting shivers just imagining it. Although I'm pretty sure my computer would just explode trying to process that many projectiles.

You aren't the only one who wants to see that, and I would also love to see Nebula-class Star Destroyers against an Imperial-class Star Battlecruiser (the Allegiance and the Eclipse's escorts from Operation Shadow Hand). Its a shame the Strident-class Star Defender has been screwed over by the novel Betrayal.

On the subject of new stuff and the Clone Wars, since the 18BBY era Rebels are mostly ex-Separatists, it'd be very cool to throw in some Providence and Lucrehulks into the rebel tech tree to match the Acclamator and Venator class vessels respectively for the Rebels. I believe it is canon that the Rebellion utilized both classes of ship in small numbers at least.

Recusant-class light destroyers are currently being used as an answer to the Venator-class Star Destroyer at the moment, both are destroyers, but the Providence-class carrier/destroyer and the Lucrehulk-class battleship are definitely welcome, the only problems are models and the increasingly shrinking UI space.

Edited by Zeta1127, 23 October 2011 - 09:59 PM.

"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#26 sevrun

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 10:59 PM

I have to admit the Recusant class actually surprised me given just how much firepower it brings to bear. The other mods I've seen it in really haven't done it justice given what I've learned of it's canonical capabilities from this mod. I think my largest problem with the GCW era is that it's always been portrayed as the monolithic cheesewedges vs mollusks. You have to respect the firepower of an ISD but it's an UGLY ship. Then the Mon Calamari vessels the Rebels leaned toward look like giant shellfish to me. Mods in general and this one in particular are slowly changing that view for me as more of the smaller lesser known (and honestly VITAL) ships see the light of day. So it really isn't a canonical issue for me, I just hate the styles involved. It's like the Empire took everything CW and tried to supersize it for maximum impact. Take the AT-AT for example. Big hulking, CLUMSY target with what appear at a glance to be space ship class turbo lasers (not a big canon person so I don't know exact stats) and not able to defend itself against lighter targets well at ALL. It appears to have been built to fulfill the same role as the AT-TE which has none of it's weaknesses, and more than sufficient firepower. PLUS no snowspeeder tangles. that's one upgrade the Empire could have done without ;) Plus from what I've seen of the ARC-170 it can hold it's own against other fighters just fine until you get into the late generation vessels like the TIE Interceptors and Defenders or A-Wings which appear to be throwbacks to the old Republic Starfighter design

Thanks for the bit on the Stormtroopers, It'll help clear up a debate between me an the wife. She's into this sort of thing a bit herself, but where I double as the grand warlord and keeper of tech she's more interested in the story of things ;) My favorite part of the Star Wars universe actually plays into what Zeta was saying a few posts up about the tech evolution, and it's my favorite part of this mod (with the naval battles being a close second currently) I can SEE the evolution of things like the TIE series fighters and design similarities between GCW and later vessels to their older CW counterparts. At the end of the day, there's just something about the Clone Troopers and the CWE that just appeals to me (and the movies had nothing to do with it... GODS I hated those movies.) But the setting in general, guess they kinda remind me of the Corps. in some respects.

Edited by sevrun, 23 October 2011 - 11:06 PM.


#27 Zeta1127

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 03:27 AM

I enjoy both the story and the technology, which is something that I think allows me to gain even more from both aspects. The technology development is so much faster during the Galactic Civil War era than it ever was during the Clone Wars era.

The Galactic Empire embraced the quantity approach for starfighters as opposed to the quality approach the Alliance followed, until the Empire saw what quality was capable of, and the unforeseen flaws present in the methodology with the lack of large groups of Force-users, like there were during the Clone Wars.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#28 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:53 AM

Are the Stormtroopers clones or aren't they?

They're all Kaminoan Fett clones until 12 BBY, when individuals and non-Jango Spaarti clones were allowed to join. Interesting note, there are Stormtrooper clones of both Daine Jir and Nahdonnis Praji out there somewhere in the galaxy by 0 BBY.

#29 Kitkun

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 07:09 AM

I think my largest problem with the GCW era is that it's always been portrayed as the monolithic cheesewedges vs mollusks.

Hah. True enough. But as someone with very utilitarian design sensibilities, I appreciate the ISD as beautiful in it's deadliness and intimidation. I pity anything that gets in that forward arc.

The technology development is so much faster during the Galactic Civil War era than it ever was during the Clone Wars era.

It's for good reason at least, as it's much longer and better depicted, and war tends to accelerate technology development.

They're all Kaminoan Fett clones until 12 BBY, when individuals and non-Jango Spaarti clones were allowed to join. Interesting note, there are Stormtrooper clones of both Daine Jir and Nahdonnis Praji out there somewhere in the galaxy by 0 BBY.

Iirc, Battlefront 2 had it that the Fett clones still comprised 'elite' units such as the 501st. (I haven't played that game in half a decade and yet I can pull that right off the top of my head. Isn't that just sad? :crazed:)

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#30 sevrun

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 12:44 AM

Well having finally found the time to get good an deep into the Empire tech tree, I still find Dreadnaughts to be some of the best cruisers available for all round utility. Not really sure if I like the Vic 1 or Vic 2 better though. don't care for the Praetor at all, too big, too sluggish, and too much population tied up by deploying it. I'll simply say there are better options. I have however gained a whole new respect for the later generation TIEs and I'm a little worried if they're supposed to be tweaking military transports. The ATR-6 is already a savage cruiser killer. figured the escort carriers would be fluff, and alone, they are. But use them to actually escort an ISD and find the ISD's one weakness (strikecraft) is covered very well. the lancers didn't particularly impress, but that's not really their fault. enemy fighters were swept aside by roughly 30 various TIE wings because I was trying to find a favorite between the Interceptor, Avenger and Defender. Interceptor lost, but I still don't know who won. gotta say that early on, don't sell the Acclamators short as long as they have a clean lane to approach a target at speed... She's easily a match for anything in her weight class in close if she can get there intact. Later she starts to lose ground against the Strike cruisers though. Didn't play with the bombers much, used the transports for that role mostly.

Seen some people complain about the Nebulon B and I really don't understand it. she's beautifully designed for the task she's meant for. Escort the big guns, and keep smaller vessels away while the big boys slug it out. Actually like her more than the Lancer, since she's not completely useless if you've established strike craft superiority, she's still a reliable threat against corvettes, frigates, or even a stray cruiser if she gets a little support.

I'll play around with the rebels next time I get a chance to get some solid time in and see how I like their ships. on their early craft I've already noticed a serious lack of Heavy turbolasers other than the Dreadnaught, so I'll have to rethink some of my tactics a bit. But I want a clear idea of what I'm working with on either side before 1.2 comes out and the AI really starts to fight back :)

#31 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:42 AM

I think we've lowered the population cost for battleships since last version... it seemed high to me too. The Praetor-class, along with the Dreadnaught, is best in a defensive battle. That said, I'm not pleased with the model.

All we've done with transports is add them to complements. It's a big change for some ships (Imperial +43) and small or no change for others (Liberty +7, Strike +0).

#32 sevrun

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:57 AM

I think we've lowered the population cost for battleships since last version... it seemed high to me too. The Praetor-class, along with the Dreadnaught, is best in a defensive battle. That said, I'm not pleased with the model.

All we've done with transports is add them to complements. It's a big change for some ships (Imperial +43) and small or no change for others (Liberty +7, Strike +0).



Ok, that's not too dangerous. though you get more than a couple wings of those ATRs and they start acting like pirahna. the 40 cost for a Praetor is two ISDs plus a couple support vessels which are capable of taking down said Praetor. When you measure it like that she's just not worth gettin. Glad to hear that's coming down, may try her out again in 1.2 and see if the lowered cost makes her any more appealing.

#33 Kitkun

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 02:17 AM

You know, PR really nailed canon. From the standpoint of this mod, it's easy to see why factions used most of the ships they do.

My tip: Upgrade the ISDs. They become awesomely tough and versatile. Like a miniature fleet in and of itself. There's a reason they stay in service for decades and the Empire built 25,000 of them. This is the ship I rely on and few planets can stand one or two of these in 1.1.

Dreadnaughts are a bit weak in ship to ship combat, but few other ships that size have heavy turbos, so it's often got an advantage in range. It's also extremely well-protected against fighters and bombers. Also, it's slow, so if it gets in trouble it's probably not coming back.

The Avenger and Defender don't really compete well against each other. The former is a mid-high-end dedicated anti-fighter platform, while the latter is a very high-end fighter-bomber. The Defender can hold it's own simply because it's so advanced, but pit them against each other and the Avenger will come out on top. The Defender holds the clear advantage against larger ships like the Recusant though. So Avenger for the little stuff, Defenders for the bigger, escorted stuff.

My opinion of them is that they're effective, but just too expensive to leave strikecraft coverage to them. Their also awfully fragile, just like all frigates, and often times heavy fighter-bombers can just turn their launchers on the Lancer and turn the tables real quick. (Frigates are really in one of the worst positions in the game. Big enough to get hit by large weapons, small enough to have weak hull/shields.)
For larger groups, you need small wolfpacks of Lancers to tear through them fast enough, but either way, it requires a lot of micromanagement to use them to their full potential. Don't underestimate the damage output of those quad lasers, either. In a real pinch they can wear down cruisers surprisingly fast as support for your heavy hitters.

Edited by Kitkun, 25 October 2011 - 02:22 AM.

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#34 Stormhawk

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 02:29 AM

I think we've lowered the population cost for battleships since last version... it seemed high to me too.


Is this changed for Eclipse and Executor class ships as well? I think that reducing their population cost any further would make them severely overpowered. A Soverign escorted by a Star Destroyer, several Lancers and TIE Avengers just seems invincible.

#35 sevrun

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 06:06 AM

You know, PR really nailed canon. From the standpoint of this mod, it's easy to see why factions used most of the ships they do.

My tip: Upgrade the ISDs. They become awesomely tough and versatile. Like a miniature fleet in and of itself. There's a reason they stay in service for decades and the Empire built 25,000 of them. This is the ship I rely on and few planets can stand one or two of these in 1.1.

Dreadnaughts are a bit weak in ship to ship combat, but few other ships that size have heavy turbos, so it's often got an advantage in range. It's also extremely well-protected against fighters and bombers. Also, it's slow, so if it gets in trouble it's probably not coming back.

The Avenger and Defender don't really compete well against each other. The former is a mid-high-end dedicated anti-fighter platform, while the latter is a very high-end fighter-bomber. The Defender can hold it's own simply because it's so advanced, but pit them against each other and the Avenger will come out on top. The Defender holds the clear advantage against larger ships like the Recusant though. So Avenger for the little stuff, Defenders for the bigger, escorted stuff.

My opinion of them is that they're effective, but just too expensive to leave strikecraft coverage to them. Their also awfully fragile, just like all frigates, and often times heavy fighter-bombers can just turn their launchers on the Lancer and turn the tables real quick. (Frigates are really in one of the worst positions in the game. Big enough to get hit by large weapons, small enough to have weak hull/shields.)
For larger groups, you need small wolfpacks of Lancers to tear through them fast enough, but either way, it requires a lot of micromanagement to use them to their full potential. Don't underestimate the damage output of those quad lasers, either. In a real pinch they can wear down cruisers surprisingly fast as support for your heavy hitters.


That's it in a nutshell, though if I'm going to micro, I'll just use the Acclamators. heavier hull/shields, and the quad turbos put out enough flak to apply an old machine gunner's term: Accuracy by volume. Makes me chuckle to watch two of them flank a big dogfight and just rake the area, watch little explosions start cookin off all over. :D And after that, just roll right up nose to nose with whatever you want vaporized and let em do their thing. Work VERY well on space stations, and a pair can even overwhelm an early ISD. But it only works if you can distract the ISD BEFORE the Acclamators get in range. If she has the full run to pound on em, you may still get her, but one Acclamator is definately dead, and the other is gonna be in a world of hurt.

As far as the fighter cover, Defenders or Avengers seem to work very well with the flare systems to draw off the potentially devastating concussion missiles, and heavy enough shielding to grind down most opposition. You are correct about the cost however. Two wings of either and I could have my pick of light frigates or 4 Bayonets, which I really like for cheap stand-off power. They work surprisingly well in dissuading enemy corvettes from joining the strikecraft dogfights. If you really want a couple wings of them to round out the strikecraft however, you can get one of each deployed from the Super Trans VII Escort carrier. cost about on par with 3 of them and you get an Avenger, Defender, Bomber, and 3 plain ole TIEs. oh, and the ability to repair your other ships mid battle. Now THAT'S a deal.

And Yes, the ISD-4s are just this side of terrifying as far as firepower, they're actually what I was referring to as being able to comfortably take a Praetor 2-1 while the rest of the fleet engages the Praetor's support. I don't know that the Rebels have a ship capable of the same, but will find out. they still don't do so hot if you can get your bombers in on them, but that's what _your_ support craft are for, right? ;)

As you may have noticed, certain ships lend themselves to how I fight, Dreadnaughts/Carracks engage the enemy at long range to soften up fortification and draw the enemy fleet out, with Acclamators waiting to establish rapid dominance in the resulting skirmish. Later in the game, the ships change with ISDs/Strike Cruisers hitting at range (and increasing firepower as the enemy attempts to close range) and Carracks or ATR-6s to nail the coffin shut. But if you really want one absolutely awesome slugging match between your fleet and the AI, choose someplace like Empress Teta or Corellia and raid the planet out from under the AI. When your fleet arrives to clear the skies the enemy fleet will blitz your position. I've done that a couple times when I didn't care about losses (older ships) or just wanted to be able to sit back and watch the light show.

#36 Ghostrider

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:23 AM

Just so you know, expect a few more lightshows In V1.2

I've been testing Core Worlds, and forget research. You need to build up military fast - the AI almost wiped me out on Corulag and Coruscant with some serious fleets. Boy am I glad I built Planetary Cannon and Golan II's.

And yes - 5 dreadnaughts makes for good long punching power - you're gonna need it! And don't forget the Carracks - for little frigates they have a long range - so you can keep them away from the big hitters. A few Carracks add nicely to the fire-sack.

You will also find that ships are a lot more mobile in V1.2 - giving you options to blitz areas, and even the sluggish Mark I Dreadnaughts can rumble into a firefight and add those precious quads for point blank punch.

Save the resarch unitl you have some safe planets that can't be invaded.

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#37 Tropical Bob

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:38 AM

That's it in a nutshell, though if I'm going to micro, I'll just use the Acclamators. heavier hull/shields, and the quad turbos put out enough flak to apply an old machine gunner's term: Accuracy by volume. Makes me chuckle to watch two of them flank a big dogfight and just rake the area, watch little explosions start cookin off all over. :D And after that, just roll right up nose to nose with whatever you want vaporized and let em do their thing. Work VERY well on space stations, and a pair can even overwhelm an early ISD. But it only works if you can distract the ISD BEFORE the Acclamators get in range. If she has the full run to pound on em, you may still get her, but one Acclamator is definately dead, and the other is gonna be in a world of hurt.

Eh. Acclamators are very disposable. Which is why I use my completely straightforward personal technique of the 'Acclamator Dive' (There's also the 'Victory Dive' alternative, which also have a heavy hull impact as well as better general weaponry). You really just send a few of them face-first into whatever your opponent has. The heavy launchers on those will quickly wear almost anything down. And 1-2 Acclamators lost is well worth an Imperial in my opinion.

Though, I'm not sure how equal tech fares with them. Usually the AI doesn't upgrade, so it's usually Acclamator IVs versus Imperial Is or IIs.

often times heavy fighter-bombers can just turn their launchers on the Lancer and turn the tables real quick.

I think that's more of an issue with the range on the Lancer. I almost want to say that, since it's such a vulnerable little frigate, it might need a larger zoning radius with its quad lasers.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 26 October 2011 - 01:49 AM.


#38 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:33 AM

You know, PR really nailed canon.

Much appreciated. I think there are a few kinks to work out in the upgrades (some already have been for v1.2), but I'm generally happy with the progression.

The Avenger and Defender don't really compete well against each other.

A lot of that has to do with our having to set warhead loads. Arm both with concussion missiles and it's a little different.

(Frigates are really in one of the worst positions in the game. Big enough to get hit by large weapons, small enough to have weak hull/shields.)

I agree. I don't think we're quite done making major mechanic shifts in space just yet.

Is this changed for Eclipse and Executor class ships as well?

No, battleships only. Those are now exclusively dreadnaught class.

Usually the AI doesn't upgrade

It does now :twisted:.



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