41 replies to this topic

[Ghoulz]

Do you copy/paste all of that, or put it in exactly how it's shown?

[thudo]

Yep.. "as is".. using Notepad? Save it as text as per usual but then rename as .lua ?

[Ghoulz]

Maybe SS commander wargear mod is causing complications. Not really a mod, more of a addon to to original files.

[thudo]

Yeah as with all things that are troubleshooting 101.. bring everything back to its lowest denominator so "keep it simple". However, I have no clue why the wargear mod would be causing the AI to not function for Player0? Something else is up.

[Ghoulz]

When things can't get worst, they do. The Eldar refuse to build a soul shrine now and tech up, even on original maps. I don't get why the AI for them is doing this out of nowhere.

[thudo]

Simple, bro.. like I said.. "keep it simple" compare your BO to the vanilla BO.. also backtrack.. I bet its something in your BO like a value that is impossible for the AI to achieve. Simple stuff.. If your Soul shrine is supposed to be buildable in Tier1 then its easy to find the issue. Just look at your code in and around where its supposed to happen. Its all about logic.

[Ghoulz]

Simple, bro.. like I said.. "keep it simple" compare your BO to the vanilla BO.. also backtrack.. I bet its something in your BO like a value that is impossible for the AI to achieve. Simple stuff.. If your Soul shrine is supposed to be buildable in Tier1 then its easy to find the issue. Just look at your code in and around where its supposed to happen. Its all about logic.

Im not a coder so I have no idea what your talking about.

[thudo]

If I could help I would but you are talking with the busiest DoW1 modder of them all. I've had to expand my skills to compensate for many team projects either floundering or dying completely. Doing so since '08 has worn me down a little but I try to help with the odd question.

Anyway you need to think "logically" when looking at your AI scripts. If your Eldar AI is not teching-up there is a reason and its in your code in that specific BO you did. Look at the vanilla Eldar AI code and compare it with yours OR run a game of your Eldar to play it manually. Something there is broken and easy to fix if you study it.

[Ghoulz]

Apparenly monkey see, monkey don't do. Even as eldar my eldar ally, or enemy just stand there and look dumb.

[thudo]

I am sure you can figure it out.

[Ghoulz]

Hmmm, it seems Eldar hate quick starts when it comes to resources...

[thudo]

Well have no clue how your modded Eldar work so.. all I know is vanilla Eldar works fine.

[Ghoulz]

Well have no clue how your modded Eldar work so.. all I know is vanilla Eldar works fine.

Thought you tested the heck out of Dawn of Skirmish.

[thudo]

Dawn of Skirmish 3.20 remotely has no problems, bro. Its been out since mid'08 which was our last build and we never EVER had any major issues since then. Its almost 2012, bro.

[Markus Ramikin]

We always play the AI on HARD with regular resources and its very hard for most people to beat even on Standard.

Are there poll results for this somewhere so I could force myself to believe it? Or maybe Thudo, could you upload a replay of you losing to Hard? (I caved in and bought Soulstorm, so won't be a problem viewing it!)

35 Paths of Enlightenment all around our side of the map, lol

I've watched something like this happen with Sacred Artifacts before, I posted about it here, about 3 posts talk about it:
http://forums.revora...post__p__796328
My guess is that it has something to do with a builder being unable to reach a building site (due to being stuck on a vehicle, or being forced to flee by enemies maybe?), eventually a new construction gets started and the AI stops correctly keeping track of how many buildings of such a type are in demand. But it's just a guess, I'm not one of the AI modders and I could be talking nonsense.

[thudo]

Take it to the bank: I CANNOT DEFEAT the HARD AI so I let the AI go at it with each other then examine areas to improve. I do this for faction work now, not raw AI logic anymore as thats pre-March '08 work. This is done at VERY high speed so things happen so fast, no human could keep up but it immensely helps spotting issues.

[Markus Ramikin]

It's not that difficult...

As to AI vs AI testing, that is fine for pure AI work when the races themselves are set in concrete. But I wonder about when you're working on a mod race (such as IDH, cough cough) and balancing attribs. Is it always easy to tell whether the race is performing the way it is due to its AI build, or if the units/features/costs are unbalanced?

So anyway. Ghoulz, are you still around? Any chance you could provide a replay with that mass PoE behaviour? I'm curious if my theory is right.

[thudo]

Actually it is but I'm not some S. Korean Starcraft Ultra-Micro'ing God!

But I wonder about when you're working on a mod race (such as IDH, cough cough) and balancing attribs. Is it always easy to tell whether the race is performing the way it is due to its AI build, or if the units/features/costs are unbalanced?

Thats what the beta test is for but testers never discuss the AI's performance with the faction because before the project even gets close to when testers can get their hands on it because before then the AI is long since optimized as best as it can.

[Markus Ramikin]

Okay, that makes sense.

Actually it is but I'm not some S. Korean Starcraft Ultra-Micro'ing God!

Check out the replays I linked, then they're vs Tau Hard and meant to be instructional (I wonder what would be a good place to post them?). The one entitled "tier 1 rush" is as straightforward as it gets, build FC, build 2 squads of tacs, keep reinforcing, keep killing things and pushing for the Tau Hard's base...

My APM there = 23, or so the AutoSaveReplays tool says. Which means very little micro. Replays of DoWPro players show APMs of around 75, which I'm not sure what they even use for.

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 17 December 2011 - 05:31 PM.

[thudo]

Right.. we could EASILY do that for the AI for all races but no thats not the point otherwise 9/10 players would be f**king frustrating with being bum-rushed every game. Tier1 Rush tactics/BO are bloody ghey and the bane of RTSes since the dawn of time. WTF is the point of dying to fast? WAR OF ATTRITION, BABY! 5min games.. meh... I like to have a drawn out challenge with back and forth going.

I haven't worked on this DoW1 Adv. AI since Sept'04 to see it get owned. Invested so much of my time and life into it but I've mostly moved onto pure DoW1 project dev with the AI now on the sidelines.