64 replies to this topic

[Námo]

INDEX OF IMPORTANT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC:
[will be updated frequently]

• Differentiating the Nazgûl:
• #Ulairi: #2, #4 and #9: The Nazgûl of Dol Guldur
• #Ulairi: #5: The Messenger of Sauron
• #Ulairi: #1 and #8: The Lord of Morgul and his Messenger
• #Ulairi: #1 and #3 ... and Gothmog: Morgul Captains at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields
• #Ringwraiths: Detour to the shadows, part #1
• #Shadows: Detour to the shadows, part #2
• #Ulairi: #3, #6 and #7: Final assignments
  
  The Nazgül Hierarchy:
• #Index of Nazgûl Names: INDEX OF NAZGÛL NAMES/TITLES
• #Index of Nazgûl Names: Comments and notes on the index of names/titles
• #Command-structures of the Nazgûl: Nazgûl Chains & Nazgûl Squads
  
  Origin of the Ringwraiths:
• #Forgotten Realms of the Shadows, part 1: From the 'Tale of Years' of the Second Age
• #Forgotten Realms of the Shadows, part 2: The North: Revolts in Eriador and Rhovanion

 Original first post starts here:

Playing cards with dead men walking
and calling them old wraiths names



Krith Shara-uuri matuurz matat duumpuga.
Ash tug Shakhbuurz-uur Uliima-tab-ishi za,
Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli

Nine for men mortal to die doomed.
One only for lord dark in this his throne,
in land Mordor where hide-themselves shadows.

I have of late felt a strange urge to have a look at my old collection of Decipher's Trading Card Game ... the one with all the well-known characters from 'The Lord of the Rings' that is. A really beautiful game, the problem is that you can't play it alone. So, I found some old gentlemen to play with, nine hollow fellows with strange Quenya names:

Úlairë Attëa = 2nd Nazgûl
Úlairë Nelya = 3rd Nazgûl
Úlairë Cantëa = 4th Nazgûl
Úlairë Lemenya = 5th Nazgûl
Úlairë Enquëa = 6th Nazgûl
Úlairë Otsëa = 7th Nazgûl
Úlairë Toldëa = 8th Nazgûl
Úlairë Nertëa = 9th Nazgûl

Strange names, indeed, for such a ragged gang, who probably never spoke one word Quenya themselves; they all look exactly the same, so how would they be able to distinguish between no. 2, 3, etc. - in fact it's not even names, because ... well, they don't have proper names ... or they might have forgotten their real names, being more than four thousand years old.

What these anonymous shadows did have, was a lot of spooky titles ... but there also seemed to be some serious conflict between various members of that gloomy fellowship, with respect to their internal ranking.

Now, being a little desperate to be able to differentiate them from each other, I sought some advice from their mentor, the old man who knows all their dark secrets - so, hoping to unmask their hooded appearances, I decided to play them against each other, using the old trick of "divide and rule":

from 'Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring':

Sauron ... resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.

... few could understand even one of these fell creatures, and (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul. [...] Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.¹

note 1):

According to the entry in the Tale of Years for 2951 Sauron sent three, not two, of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur. The two statements can be reconciled on the assumption that one of the Ringwraiths of Dol Guldur returned afterwards to Minas Morgul but I think it more likely that the formulation of the present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled; and it may be noted that in a rejected version of the present passage there was only one Nazgûl in Dol Guldur (not named as Khamûl, but referred to as "the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)"), while one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger.

"the formulation of the present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled":

from "the Tale of Years" Third Age 2951:

Sauron declares himself openly and gathers powers in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr. [...] Sauron sends three Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur.

Conclusion: Three Nazgûl were assigned to Dol Guldur. The Witchking with five other dwelt in Minas Morgul, but one of these was assigned to Barad-dûr as chief messenger for Sauron.

Edited by Námo, 20 November 2011 - 08:36 PM.
setting up the game

[Námo]

#Ulairi: #2, #4 and #9

Dol Guldur:

Khamûl, aka 'the Second Chief' or 'the Black Easterling':

... Attëa = 2nd. Nazgûl ...

Khamûl was also called the 'Shadow of the East', and was in 2951 appointed 'Keeper of Dol Guldur':

from 'Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring', note 1)

According to the entry in the Tale of Years for 2951 Sauron sent three, not two, of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur. The two statements can be reconciled on the assumption that one of the Ringwraiths of Dol Guldur returned afterwards to Minas Morgul but I think it more likely that the formulation of the present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled; and it may be noted that in a rejected version of the present passage there was only one Nazgûl in Dol Guldur (not named as Khamûl, but referred to as "the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)"), while one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger.

So according to Tolkien's writings we must conclude, that there were 3 Nazgûl at Dol Guldur, thus 'Lieutenant of Dol Guldur' and 'Messenger of Dol Guldur' are valid titles:

... Cantëa = 4th. Nazgûl ... ... Nertëa = 9th. Nazgûl ...

Edited by Námo, 08 November 2011 - 02:18 PM.
shuffle of cards

[Námo]

#Ulairi: #5

Barad-dûr:

It is said, that "one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger"; as several of the Nazgûl could be named as 'Lieutenant of Morgul' ...

... Lemenya = 5th. Nazgûl ...

... one of them should be assigned to serve the Dark Lord of Barad-dûr:

from 'Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring', note 1)

... one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger.

... Lemenya = 5th. Nazgûl ...

However, this Nazgûl could then be properly named as 'Messenger of Barad-dûr'.

Excerpt from The Thain's Book (entry:The Nazgûl):

A Winged Nazgul was sent by Sauron to investigate what Saruman was up to. This Winged Nazgul passed over Dol Baran around 11:00 on the night of March 5. [...] And although Pippin Took had just spoken to Sauron via the palantir while camping at Dol Baran, this Nazgul was not responding to Pippin's actions because the 600-mile journey from Mordor took about six or seven hours. This Nazgul then flew over Isengard and returned to Mordor.

A second Nazgul was dispatched after Sauron saw Pippin in the palantir. This Nazgul came to Edoras on March 6 and hovered over the roof of Meduseld.

Hence the title "Chief Messenger".

Note: the name 'Lieutenant of Barad-dur' should not be used for one of the Nazgûl, as this title was used by Tolkien for 'the Mouth of Sauron', cf.:

from RotK, The Black Gate Opens:

The rider was robed all in black ... yet this was no Ringwraiht but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron'.

Edited by Námo, 08 November 2011 - 02:56 AM.
shuffle of cards

[Námo]

#Ulairi: #1 and #8

Minas Morgul:

The Witchking has been given a lot of 'names'/titles, many of them by Tolkien himself: 'Lord of Angmar' aka 'Lord of the Nazgûl' aka 'the Black Captain' aka 'the Morgul King' etc. etc.:

... The Witch-King ...
(... King of Angmar, Lord of Morgul ...)

Keeping with the nomenclature of the other Nazgûl, 'Lord of Morgul' seem to be the best fitting, at the time of the the War of the Ring, but 'Morgul King' or 'Morgul Lord' is fine, too.

Minas Morgul was in fact outside the boundaries of Mordor, and was as such a separate and sovereign realm or kingdom - it existed as such for a millennium under the rule of the Witchking, before Sauron reentered Mordor - and the Dark Lord was wise enough not to humble the pride of his most trusted servant.

Being the Lord of Morgul, he would need one of other Nazgûl residing there as messenger:

... Toldëa = 8th. Nazgûl ...

That leaves 3 other Nazgûl ...

... Nelya = 3rd. Nazgûl ...


... Enquëa = 6th. Nazgûl ... ... Otsëa = 7th. Nazgûl ...

... but they can't all be "Lieutenant of Morgul", so I'll have play around with them a little more, to find a way to differentiate them ... might be a little tricky.

Any suggestions?

Edited by Námo, 07 November 2011 - 10:21 PM.
shuffle of cards

[Lauri]

Sergeant of Morgul, Sergeant First Class of Morgul, Major of Morgul and Colonel of Morgul?




Sounds about right

[Troudabour]

Wow i really miss playing this card game, brings back a lot of memories!
Concerning your question though, I really am no LOTR expert, but the first idea that comes to my mind is to somehow relate the titles to their former lives as kings and such. For example: "Ruler of Arnor" or something similar. (Because they used to be kings right?)

If you come up with better names, are you going to change the cards somehow, or do you have other plans?

Oh and interesting read BTW, I didn't know the origin of those names before, but always found them a bit wierd

[Hostile]

Why can't they all be lieutenants? I see no problem with such a large fortress to have 4 officers, each one in charge of thier own section.

[Námo]

... the first idea that comes to my mind is to somehow relate the titles to their former lives as kings and such. For example: "Ruler of Arnor" or something similar. (Because they used to be kings right?)

Bad idea ... we hardly know anything about their former lives, only that one was an Easterling, and that three of them came from the South, being Black Nûmenoreans. That's all.

If you come up with better names, are you going to change the cards somehow, or do you have other plans?

I'm just using the cards as an example of one way to 'name' those old gentlemen, that's all. Decipher did a pretty good job with their cards, in general.

[Námo]

Why can't they all be lieutenants? I see no problem with such a large fortress to have 4 officers, each one in charge of thier own section.

As you know, I'm not from an English speaking country, so I'm not very familiar with your military nomenclature. I thought that within a specific command-structure there would be one chief (captain) and then only one second-in-chief, i.e. the lieutenant.

It would be a really precious information for me, if it's possible to have more than one lieutenant under the same commander-in-chief. Replies on this particular point would be really appreciated, as it has some importance for this topic, and even more so for the topic on Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul.

------------

Edit: Additional questions:

Do I have to understand you so, that there can be several lieutenants, if they command different 'divisions', like for example one for Men and another for Orcs - or for example one for the reinforcements from the South (Haradrim) and another for those reinforcements coming from the Black Gate (Easterlings and Orcs)?

And if affirmative, can you still have another lieutenant not assigned to any particular army-division, like a replacement for the commander-in-chief, should this be slain on the battlefield?

Considering that the Witchking was Lord of Morgul, could such a second-in-chief have an alternative title like "Captain of Morgul"?

Edited by Námo, 08 November 2011 - 02:44 AM.

[Hostile]

When I served in the navy, we had a lieutenant called engineering officer, another called combat systems officer, operations officer, navigation officer and so on. They were mostly equal rank but there are more specific levels of lietenants.

In the US army you have http://en.wikipedia....r_rank_insignia

British army http://en.wikipedia....r_rank_insignia

As you can see LT is a really entry level rank. But who knows Tolkiens interpertation of a LT.

And if affirmative, can you still have another lieutenant not assigned to any particular army-division, like a replacement for the commander-in-chief, should this be slain on the battlefield?

Considering that the Witchking was Lord of Morgul, could such a second-in-chief have an alternative title like "Captain of Morgul"?

Seems like perfect sense to me...it would be dumb not to.

Edited by Námo, 08 November 2011 - 02:42 AM.
redundant quote removed

[Námo]

Thanks a lot, Eric, that was indeed very helpful info ... in fact the last piece of puzzle that I needed for finalizing a complete and consistent naming of the Nazgûl, in the Common Tongue (Westron) of Middle-earth. As noted earlier, I have already made a similar set of names in Adûnaic, or to be precise in the Black Nûmenoreans dialect of that language; this will be posted later when I've finished this tread.

[Námo]

Sergeant of Morgul, Sergeant First Class of Morgul, Major of Morgul and Colonel of Morgul?

Oh, with such titles I wouldn't know who to promote, and who to degrade - and sorry, I made a mistake and listed 10 Nazgûl, but apparently nobody did notice that; anyway, 9+1 Nazgûl is a closer hit than 9+18 = 27 Nazgûl - bottom line of calculation: only 3 Nazgûl missing unique titles.

I'll just stick to Tolkien's nomenclature and use 'captain' and 'lieutenant', as those terms apparently are a little flexible.

I did a quick research on Gondor's use of 'captain' - Boromir was a 'Captain of the White Tower' and eventually became 'Captain-General'; Faramir was a 'Captain of Gondor' and the commander of the Rangers of Ithilien; Beregond became 'Captain of the Guard of Faramir'. The use of the title must have been equally flexible.

So I'm going to promote three of the (more senior) Nazgûl to captains (or rather give that as an option) - Nazgûl #3, #4 and #5:

------------

#3 Nelya: 'Lieutenant of Morgul' > 'Captain of Morgul' [optional]

... Nelya = 3rd. Nazgûl ...

At the battle of the Pelennor Fields the Witchking was the supreme commander over several armies: the Morgul-host (Men and Orcs), the forces from the South (Khand, Harad [and Umbar]) and the forces coming from the north, some from Morannon and some via Cair Andros (Easterlings and Orcs [Trolls]) - As the Morgul-Lord was in the vanguard of the armies, there must have been senior officers coordinating the different army divisions ...

... also the title 'Lieutenant of Morgul' isn't unique because of "Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul" (though still usable).

------------

#4 Cantëa: 'Lieutenant of Dol Guldur' > 'Captain of Dol Guldur' [optional]

... Cantëa = 4th. Nazgûl ...

Although initially staying with Khamul as his lieutenant, he may have served as captain commanding one of the three armies from Dol Guldur simultaneous attacking Lorien, Thranduil's Realm and Erebor on March 15, the same day as the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

------------

#5 Lemenya: 'Lieutenant of Morgul' > 'Lieutenant of Barad-dûr'/'Captain of Barad-dûr' [optional], serving as 'Messenger of Barad-dûr'.

... Lemenya = 5th. Nazgûl ...

... so the title is not conflicting with "The Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-dûr" - the title 'Messenger of Barad-dûr' should be preferred.

from 'Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring', note 1)

...one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger.

That leaves only two Nazgûl without unique titles - Nazgûl #6 and #7:

... Enquëa = 6th. Nazgûl ... ... Otsëa = 7th. Nazgûl ...

I'll not promote those ... there should be some junior officers, too ... but I'm going to give them some special assignments.

Edited by Námo, 07 November 2011 - 10:29 PM.
shuffling the cards to get a straight flush

[Hostile]

I wouldn't get too bogged down in titles. Any fool would know that even a lord of 3 armies has thier captains and maybe even generals. Kings don't really lead armies, captains do. I doubt any Nazgul commanded an army into battle unless surrounded by captains and LTs.

lieu·ten·ant/lo͞oˈtenənt/
Noun:

• A deputy.
• A commissioned officer in the US Navy or Coast Guard ranking above lieutenant junior grade and below lieutenant commander.

Sometimes LT, simply means right hand man. Street gangs even use that phrase.

Edited by Námo, 08 November 2011 - 02:40 AM.
redundant quote removed

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Using the standard military (at least the American/Australian etc) hierarchy LT is pretty low.

From memory (skipping out some I'm sure) it goes LT-MJR-CAP-LC-Col-Gen.
Maybe the military hierarchy used here would put lieutenant as more of a Captain role and Captain as a General or Colonel role.

The Witch King led the attack on Minas Tirith with Gothmog at his side but since all the Nazgul were there I wonder who would have led the attacks on Lothlorien, Mirkwood and Dale/Erebor.

[Námo]

#Ulairi: #1 and #3 ... and Gothmog

I wouldn't get too bogged down in titles. Any fool would know that even a lord of 3 armies has thier captains and maybe even generals. Kings don't really lead armies, captains do. I doubt any Nazgul commanded an army into battle unless surrounded by captains and LTs.

You're almost right. Of all the Nazgûl only the Witchking did command his army, riding at the vanguard on his black horse at the Siege of Minas Tirith, and in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields engaging in real combat. Thus he's really the only one deserving the epithet 'captain':

Otherwise, in battles Nazgûl were generally just flying around, their fellbeasts screeching, and they themselves doing nothing more than radiating fear. Even the black dart that hid Faramir when chased by some Nazgûl can't be attributed to them, but probably came from the Haradrim. Apart from that, I still believe that one of their functions (and maybe the primary one) were to coordinate the attacks, i.e. acting as sort of 'spies' and/or 'liaison officers'.

So I'll follow your advice, and not make any of the other Nazgûl captains. Apologies to Nazgûl #3, #4 and #5 for revoking their promised 'promotion'.

However, for on of them (#3) I'll need to keep the title 'Lieutenant of Morgul' - which sort of creates a conflict with "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul". This is apparently an artificial conflict, being just a semantic problem, so I'll solve it by following these guidelines ...

Why can't they all be lieutenants? [...] each one in charge of thier own section.

Sometimes LT, simply means right hand man. Street gangs even use that phrase.

I believe this corresponds pretty well with the way Tolkien uses the title.

Thus, I'll not interpret "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" as 'Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul', but as 'Gothmog, lieutenant of Morgul' ... that is as just a Morgul Commander ...

... taking command of the street gangs Morgul-host on the battlefield, after the passing away of the Morgul Lord.

#3 Nelya will keep his title as 'Lieutenant of Morgul', and in battle doing his job from high above the ground, doing whatever he's assigned to do up there:

Edited by Námo, 07 November 2011 - 10:26 PM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

It's possible the Nazgul could have acted as Trumpeteers/Signalers for the Siege of Minas Tirith.
An army of that size would need a fair amount of organisation and the Nazgul on their fellbeasts would have been ideal for this.
Pure speculation but it's how I would use them.

[Námo]

I believe that their main function were to survey the unfolding battle on the ground, i.e. to coordinate the different attacks, like deciding when fresh reinforcements were needed. At least they had an unique possibility of doing so, and I'm rather sure that the Dark Lord wouldn't let such an opportunity pass without taking advantage of it.

[the attack on Minas Tirith] ... since all the Nazgul were there I wonder who would have led the attacks on Lothlorien, Mirkwood and Dale/Erebor.

There are no references in the lore indicating that all the Nazgûl were present at that battle, only at the Battle of Morannon.

For a comprehensive account of the movements of the Nazgûl, see The Thain's Book: The Nazgûl, especially the part on the winged Nazgûl.

Edited by Námo, 31 October 2011 - 01:08 PM.

[Adamin]

Great idea to find some appropriate titles for every single Nazgûl, Námo!

But I'm a little confused about your final conclusion. Could you maybe delete the redundant 10th Nazgûl in your first posts or/and refresh their titles?
Also, I would like to translate your assumptions into german, if it's okay for you. They are well based on facts and suit much better into LotR then the usually used "made up names".

[Námo]

I'm a little confused about your final conclusion.

I haven't arrived there yet, there are only partial conclusions at the moment. Which one?

Could you maybe delete the redundant 10th Nazgûl in your first posts or/and refresh their titles?

The 10th Nazgûl was removed some ago, before answering Lauri's post. Before I really got the cards sorted out, I posted 4 by accident there.

On updating their titles: it looks like an ongoing process, but I'll make a special one for you ... one of the three unresolved Nazgûl, in a strange language much like Black Speech:

... Ulairë Otsëa: Zwarte Schim ...

As close as I could get to a German translation; I'm afraid you'll have to make that one yourself.

Also, I would like to translate your assumptions into german, if it's okay for you.

Of course it's OK. I'm posting all this weird stuff in the hope, that some people actually can use it for something sensible. Be my guest.

Edited by Námo, 09 November 2011 - 08:35 AM.
cheating - playing invalid card

[Adamin]

Ah okay, I thought that your last post was somewhat final, my bad.

The last card seems more like dutch to me.