41 replies to this topic

[EnderW]

I've found a topic about the colapse of the EU and I really wanted to say that this crisis is not going to end unless we do some radical changes . Democracy is no longer viable and we really need an alternative.I mean, seriously, no political party is going to spend hundreds of millions dolars/euros just to increase our salaries and retirement fees.Elections are a very profitable business for politicians.They all want not only to recover their investment, they want PROFIT.So, if the principle of democracy is corruption, how can we expect politicians not to be corrupt ?

[Pasidon]

You must have a lot of faith in democracy's downfall if you really believe we can change at this point. This isn't quite Rome; we're far to faithful to our system and changing seems so preposterous, it may never happen. We all know 90% of politicians are corrupt, but what can ya' do...

[Ash]

I just read about Angela Merkel's speech regarding their plan to sort out the EU crisis. Fourth Reich, anyone? Good on Scameron fot at least growing something approaching a backbone at last.

[duke_Qa]

It does seem that we have a political tsunami coming up with the british veto on whatever it was the other EU nations just got together on. I don't think that its a bad idea to take a step away for a few years though... But as the article writer mentions:

"But Europe, for all its follies and failings, has become a scapegoat for weaknesses that are really our own. We may be about to rediscover that awkward truth. It was why we joined in the first place."

It's easy to blame other nations for your own failings. The same way its easy to blame people for our own flaws. Don't expect any freebies coming out of an isolation from the EU.

So, if the principle of democracy is corruption, how can we expect politicians not to be corrupt ?

For me, that is libertarian/neo-liberal politics in a nutshell. Everyone for themselves; find your own way of prospering no matter where you are; use the power you've been given for your own gain.

Edited by duke_Qa, 09 December 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[Námo]

Good on Scameron for at least growing something approaching a backbone at last.

Agreed. Good move.

[EnderW]

World War 3 is an economical one and we are losing, because economy is tied to politics.The current winner is China.I mean, if you look closely, most countries are indebted to China, directly or indirectly.And they can't pay.So what does China do? Delays the payday and, in exchange asks for resources, factories, votes in the UN, laws that favor chinese investment in that country, meaning less taxes on money that returns from investments to China, and so begins the cycle.Less taxes for money returning to China means less money for the country and so the country needs to take loans again from China and so on.Today there are countries so indebted, that they should work an entire year without salaries in order to repay their debts.Why did this happen?
Because politicians promise us salary and retirement fee increases, and they borrow money in order to fulfill their promises.Of course, most of the money from such loans find their way in the politicians coffers, but in order to be reelected they must throw us a bone too.
Corrupt politicians also make laws.Laws that protect them, after all they are corrupt, laws that are so complicated that two opposite verdicts for the same crime are both legal.So where did the principle of equality before the law disappear?
We are all equal but some enjoy the status of "primus inter pares"(first among equals).

[Romanul]

Anthonius, paragraphs. Never forget your paragraphs. Also try to keep a dialogue.
And yeah, I did bring him here.

Indeed, China is possibly growing too fast and becoming a threat to Europe but honestly, I don't view it as a one-side apocalypse. Indeed, we're collapsing, but not so fast, and there's a chance of Europe becoming a harder nut via the new EU:



Dark black=big EU countries for Germany's plan
Black=small EU countries for Germany's plan
Red = small EU countries against -"-
Dark red = big -"-
Green= no position yet

IMO Europe is just cleaning itself. What will happen later with the ex-EU countries simply cannot be predicted. Maybe some sort of Cold War 2.

[EnderW]

Actually, I don't think that China is becoming a threat to Europe.Europe has Germany and that is a big advantage.China IS a threat to the US.The US has a huge debt to China and they really don't want to pay it.So what does the US do? The Americans will play their last card : military supremacy. They will say that China does not respect the human rights and why would they pay the debt to such a inhuman country.
The US can and will provoke a new Cold War.Then Europe will have to pick a side.We sure don't want to be communists so we'll pick the US.But they won't protect us just out of kindness, they will probably ask to adopt euro.That means Europe will have to choose between economic disaster and military disaster.

Edited by EnderW, 09 December 2011 - 04:36 PM.

[Ash]

I dont foresee a cold war of any description. All I can see is the French and Germans (particularly the Germans, who are the stronger of the two) basically forcing all the other countries to be their lackeys, and for the likes of the ROI, Greece, Italy and Spain there is little they could realistically do about it. So much Franco-German money has poured into those four countries that they have effectively bought those countries. Sovereignty is being sold here to a new and quite terrifying power in the world. Economic conquest looks to be the new biggest threat to democracy, thanks to these econofascists.

The best (or least bad) outcome for everyone now is that the UK and other countries divorce themselves from the European project before Sarko and Merkel can hoard too much power into their own hands, our those of the likes of that vacuous cretin Rumpuy.

This is what over a hundred million people died to prevent over the course of the last century. Now we have the whole continent sitting in German pockets, the French, Dutch, Belgians and Polish prostituting themselves to Merkel and nobody in any position of authority can see that the EU's overregulation, diktats, dissolution of sovereignty and erosion of democracy are bad things. I hope that the weaker euronations look upon Britain's distancing of itself from euregulation as a banner to rally under.

[duke_Qa]

When the politicians do nothing, we complain that they leave us drifting in the storm and to the whims of corporations. When they take step to do something about it, we call them dictators and abusers of freedom. Can't be easy being boss.

The dynamic for me looks pretty clear: France and Germany puts the nations that are unable and unwilling into their dungeon, where they whip them good.

Countries with corruption-cultures like Italy and Greece deserve something like this to get their power-hierarchies on the straight and narrow. This might not be what the discussions are looking like, but that would in my opinion be the best-case-scenario.

China IS a threat to the US.The US has a huge debt to China and they really don't want to pay it.So what does the US do? The Americans will play their last card : military supremacy. They will say that China does not respect the human rights and why would they pay the debt to such a inhuman country.

The debt to China isn't much to worry about. China won't foreclose on the US because it is earning a wast majority of its income from the US. To demand those loans paid back is a economic M-A-D situation, an economic nuke. the debt will only be used to keep the status quo going.

Edited by duke_Qa, 09 December 2011 - 08:57 PM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Meanwhile in Australia it's all good in the hood.
(I've been wanting to get in that cheap shot for a while )

EnderW you have a rather bleak view on things.
People are actually starting to take a stand, there's less apathy towards important matters by the public.
This trend will continue possibly until something real happens.

Actually, I don't think that China is becoming a threat to Europe.Europe has Germany and that is a big advantage.China IS a threat to the US.The US has a huge debt to China and they really don't want to pay it.So what does the US do? The Americans will play their last card : military supremacy. They will say that China does not respect the human rights and why would they pay the debt to such a inhuman country.

The US isn't the superpower it once was and is highly unlikely to get into a cold war with the likes of China.
Not all US Debt belongs to China and as long as the debt remains that's good for China.

Why would Europe even choose a side?
At the moment the US has their issues and Europe has their own.
The issues are somewhat similar a corrupt and broken political and financial system that has allowed the few unelected to decide the fate of the masses.
Besides even with the EU as a sort of unifier of interests, Europe isn't a country and might not choose one side.

World War 3 is an economical one and we are losing, because economy is tied to politics.The current winner is China.I mean, if you look closely, most countries are indebted to China, directly or indirectly.And they can't pay.So what does China do? Delays the payday and, in exchange asks for resources, factories, votes in the UN, laws that favor chinese investment in that country, meaning less taxes on money that returns from investments to China, and so begins the cycle.Less taxes for money returning to China means less money for the country and so the country needs to take loans again from China and so on.

Today there are countries so indebted, that they should work an entire year without salaries in order to repay their debts.Why did this happen?
Because politicians promise us salary and retirement fee increases, and they borrow money in order to fulfill their promises.Of course, most of the money from such loans find their way in the politicians coffers, but in order to be reelected they must throw us a bone too.
Corrupt politicians also make laws.Laws that protect them, after all they are corrupt, laws that are so complicated that two opposite verdicts for the same crime are both legal.So where did the principle of equality before the law disappear?
We are all equal but some enjoy the status of "primus inter pares"(first among equals).

You speak as if China is the only power in the world a great big beast capable of devouring the world.
China isn't the only country with a booming economy fuelled by industry the aren't the only economic power.

Unlike a lot of people I don't believe the sky is falling, it's just lowering a little.
The truth is the world is in a state of flux at the moment, the structures that were set up last century are no longer relevant and it's going to take a while
before new ones can replace them.
We are entering a world where previously poor countries like India and China now have considerable clout and now countries like the US and Russia aren't the only big boys.

This in no way resembles a World War or a Cold War.

[Námo]

I just read about Angela Merkel's speech regarding their plan to sort out the EU crisis. Fourth Reich, anyone?

The plans for the EU were actually born during WW2 ... by Nazi Germany:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1jsU8StIVo#!

The video is a bit long, but very informative on those dark aspects of EUSSR that the politicians, and the MSM, wants to hide from the ordinary citizens of Europe.

and BTW ...

... that vacuous cretin Rumpuy.

The name is Gollum ... Gollum van Rompuy. It's official, cf.:

ZeroHedge: Not the headlines Gollum van Rompuy needed ...

Other nations will follow Britain's lead, just wait and see.

Edited by Námo, 09 December 2011 - 11:08 PM.

[Hostile]

Maybe EnderW should be a GNP commentator. IF anyone Googles Enders Game, the book.

I like his style...

[EnderW]

I agree with duke_Qa (about the politicians), but although democracy offers us more freedom, it comes with a huge cost.I mean, communist leaders take a decision and it's implemented immediately.In the democratic system the opposition will do whatever they can to stall the governing party's/coalitions laws, good or bad.
Btw, I didn't say China will demand those loans back.The chinese will slowly buy US resources like they do with African resources.
And @Radspakr most of Australia's resources are owned by China, who is the largest purchaser of Australian debt.
European countries hate communism, so I would say they most certainly won't chose China.
Russia won't be a "big boy" much longer, they're kind of falling behind.US too is falling behind.The last card of these countries is military supremacy and they are going to use it.
Also, you forget that economic growth isn't as important as the use of money.They are constantly investing in other countries, literally buying them.The chinese people sacrificed the individual for the country.I don't think any other country can do that.

PS:Enders Game is a good book, as are all the books of the series.

Edited by EnderW, 10 December 2011 - 11:58 AM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

European countries hate communism, so I would say they most certainly won't chose China.

China is no longer a pure Communist country, they have been shifting towards a more capitalist slant.
If they were still communist they wouldn't be the up and comers they are.
So it fails to be about Communism vs Capitalism as much as it is Capitalism vs Democracy.

China are great buyers of our resources and have made Australia very rich over the last 10 years.
China aren't taking us over, merely buying as much as we can sell.
It works out well in both our cases.

I don't get what you mean by fall of democracy.
You speak only of Europe and the US but they aren't the only democracies in the world, democracy continues to work well for many countries and will into the future.
There's not going to be a collapse instead it's more likely that it will evolve and adapt to suit the times.

With China's massive growth it's more likely that matters of Human Rights will brought into the open and will more likely be resolved as living standards improve.
Eliminating the apparent cause of a Cold War.

Democracy is being tested and eroded away in both Europe and the US.
We're talking here about 1st world countries which are less likely to bring in a fascist regime or something of the like.
When the people reach the point where their voices can no longer be heard and the quality of life decreases they'll act at which point reform will happen.
That point can't be that far off.

[EnderW]

You said it yourself.Democracy is falling.In politics only the 1st world countries matter.Slowly, through their influence the rest of the world is changed.
You're right about China.It's not purely communist, but that's not my point.I used the word communism wrong.I meant dictatorship.
As for Australia, China is building its own mining operations in the country, so it buys land and resources.And this process will repeat itself till there's nothing more to buy, cause we're to slow to react.
Foreign investment is not as good as many would have you believe.In short term is great.Money flowing in the country, jobs, etc.But the profits the foreign companies make are returning to their countries, taxed, but still returning.So in the long term it's a really bad thing for that country.

[Námo]

China is no longer a pure Communist country, they have been shifting towards a more capitalist slant.
If they were still communist they wouldn't be the up and comers they are.
So it fails to be about Communism vs Capitalism as much as it is Capitalism vs Democracy.

Crony Socialism or Crony Capitalism ... for ordinary peoples it's in essence the same: political and economic serfdom.

So it's Crony Socialism / Crony Capitalism vs. Democracy and freedom.

[Námo]

Regular readers of ZeroHedge will know, that the Chinese economy is in fact very far from being stable and sustainable. Most of their growth in GDP are offset by very high environmental costs, they are heading for a massive 'housing bubble', and there have already been one bail-out, equal in relative proportions to 150% of the one in the US following the collapse of Lehman Brothers.

Just one example:

One Alarming Indicator From China

For a few decades now, the Communist Party in China has had an implicit social and political contract with the Chinese populous for decades, which goes something like:

"We will deliver economic growth and improvements in your material living standards. You will meekly do as you are told, refrain from dissent, work hard, save a huge percentage of your money, and ignore obvious corruption."

While nearly everyone in China has benefited to some degree under this current "system," the wheels are definitely starting to come off. Official GDP numbers are now slowing, real estate prices are falling, and inflation is quickening.

Now, I've made no secret that I'm decidedly bearish on China's medium-term prospects. After my trip there back in June to conduct some good old-fashioned "boots on the ground" research, I wrote extensively about the massive overbuilding of apartments, office blocks, and all manner of infrastructure on an almost unimaginable scale.

Put simply, every year since 2005, more than 50% of China's GDP has consisted of construction-related spending. The law of diminishing marginal returns says this simply cannot continue.

It represents a misallocation of the household sector's hard-earned savings on a colossal scale, and I believe it will end badly. Not a day goes by that there aren't riots and protests somewhere in China (including cyberspace) as the downtrodden man in the street reaches his froggy boiling point.

Increasingly in China, though, those who see the writing on the wall can see that the days of system stability are numbered. And they're not hanging around.

For a number of years, mainland Chinese buyers have accounted for nearly all new apartment sales in Melbourne and Sydney. On numbers I've seen, they have been investing between A$2 billion and $3 billion a year.

An increasing number of mainland Chinese are establishing permanent residency and sending their child(ren) to school and university in Australia. And Simon recently reported that from an offshore strategies conference in Shanghai that the room was packed full of Chinese people learning how to diversify abroad.

They all want to have their options open when China's economy and political system hits turbulence.

Judging by the poor economic numbers coming out of China, this day of reckoning is drawing ever closer. One alarming indicator is that the Chinese renminbi has traded down to the lower limit of its strictly controlled trading band for SEVEN TRADING SESSIONS IN A ROW.

This suggests that there is more money leaving China than being earned from overseas trade or invested there. The exchange rate may be only one simple indicator, but it's a great barometer for what is going on: China is not going to be the savior of the global economy, but rather another casualty.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Interesting times we are moving into.

You said it yourself.Democracy is falling

I didn't say that, I said it's being tested and when dissatisfaction reaches the breaking point change will have to occur.
Which is a very real democracy.

[Námo]

... when dissatisfaction reaches the breaking point change will have to occur ...

This has started in Europe already.

The last year has shown some substantial volatility among the electorate, and this is only the beginning.

The resistance to the EU seems to grow exponentially, and will most likely explode when the Euro implodes, no matter how many death-born plans to make a workable plan the Commission are churning out. If you read their various statements, this is what they are doing, making plans for a plan, making summits to decide what should be implemented at the next summit ... or in plain words: kicking the can a little down the road, to appease the markets with some headlines - the half-life of all that hopium is usually half a day, then the ECB has to intervene (in the second marked, which probably is illegal) to buy the bad debt of the faltering members of the Euro-zone.

One day soon, they'll run out of road to kick the can further. The Euro is doomed to fail.

This has to stop. If sanity (i.e. the sovereignty of the Nations of Europe) is not restored, then there'll be civil disobedience and civil unrest, and if necessary civil war. Personally I would like to see some of those politicians responsible put on trial at a Martial Court, and punished for high treason; I'm serious.