41 replies to this topic

[EnderW]

This has to stop. If sanity (i.e. the sovereignty of the Nations of Europe) is not restored, then there'll be civil disobedience and civil unrest, and if necessary civil war. Personally I would like to see some of those politicians responsible put on trial at a Martial Court, and punished for high treason; I'm serious.

I totally agree.

[Námo]

Just curious, EnderW ... from which country do you hail? - For your information I'm from Denmark, and proud of my country.

[EnderW]

I'm from Romania.I'm proud of my country but ashamed of our politicians.

Edited by EnderW, 10 December 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[Námo]

Are the politicians of Romania just as bad as those old communists from Croatia, looking forward to sky-high salaries in Brussels when joining the EUSSR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGA5SsrfJkE

As the central bankers and political leaders of the 'supposedly-developed' world sit back in their chaise-longues sipping mojitos ... perhaps they will cough a little at Nigel Farage's (the cantankerously correct MEP from The UK) comments today. Describing the process of 'bribing' Croatia to join the EU as a 'bent, corrupt, and distorted' effort, he remarks that he has never seen this kind of pressure. It is remarkable, he notes in an undeniably intelligent-sounding English accent, that after only 20 years out of the former Yugoslavia, after such a long period of seeking independence, they are now voting to rejoin a 'new Yugoslavia' - a failing political experiment. Perhaps, Van Rompuy and friends would be better spending the money on more mojitos for their friends at the Fed and PBOC?

[EnderW]

Our politicians are, mostly, from the old communist party.They are very corrupt, too corrupt.They've cut all salaries (except theirs) and retirement fees by 25%.And yet the budget deficit remained the same.Why? Because they've increased state expenses.And by state expenses I mean state contracts expenses.They grant their relatives very advantageous contracts (highways at 4 times the average price in the EU, price for snow removal on 1 km of road 4 or 5 times more than in Finland and the list goes on), and no one questions them.
When, once in a while, a corrupt politician is arrest, he gets released because of procedural flaws.In our country the laws are so complicated and the procedures so complex that, if you have very good lawyers, you can get away with almost anything.
That's what I hate about democracy.People who should be behind bars are making laws.And what kind of laws? A law where a mother who steals a bread to feed her children is sent to prison for five years and the politician who steals millions from the state, if he does not succeed to bribe the first judge, or somehow his lawyers don't notice any procedural flaws, appeals again and again until he finally gets released.
Now you decide if our politicians are worse than those from Croatia.

[Ash]

And you sound somehow surprised by these turns of events.

As far as I'm concerned, any politician of any non-French, non-German country who didn't do what David Cameron did should be executed or at least incarcerated under their own country's laws for treason. Nothing like handing your country, its politics, its laws, its sovereignty as an indepdendent nation, over to foreigners.

And then we should do the same to Cameron and his predecessors for not doing what he did when the Lisbon Treaty was put forward.

The people didn't vote for it, the people didn't ask for it, the people don't trust it, the people don't want it. So why do the politicians insist on ramming it down our throats?

That's not democracy. The EU isn't democracy either. There's almost nothing democratic about it. Not to mention that the democratic bit will simply demand a re-vote a few months later if the populace don't pick the 'right' option in their eyes.

That unprincipled wretch Nick Clegg, who would gladly prostitute the UK to Brussels, is bleating that this will isolate the UK from Europe. That's not really a bad thing IMO...

[EnderW]

I'm not surprised.As I said earlier, this is how democracy works.But this time it's gone too far.
The latest plan of our beloved politicians is to kill poor people.They want free medical services to be given proportionally with the compulsory health insurance contribution, that means low salaries=no free medical services=poor people can't pay for medical services=poor people die.I know I'm young and don't know much about these things, but it just isn't human, isn't right.

Edited by EnderW, 11 December 2011 - 08:24 PM.

[Námo]

That unprincipled wretch Nick Clegg, who would gladly prostitute the UK to Brussels, is bleating that this will isolate the UK from Europe. That's not really a bad thing IMO...

Not isolate Britain from Europe, just the European Union. More will follow ... Finland is very reluctant (with the True Finns rising to power), in Sweden 88% are against the Euro, Denmark will most likely have a referendum (binding for the parliament) with an average of 65% against the EU and rising, Poland will have to pay about 30% of their GDP to save the Euro (i.e zero chance of reelecting if passed), a majority of Dutch parties want a referendum (though probably not binding), Hungary will give problems ... and some countries is or will be so bankrupt that they'll have to leave the Euro-zone. Bye-bye EUSSR.

Britain will probably save a lot of money, if your politicians keep their back straight and don't fold:

[duke_Qa]

And all this happy talk about secession from a system you don't like, you keep forgetting the reason these laws are being made: Lack of good economic control in aforementioned nations.

There was already a demand from the EU of responsible debt levels (around 80-90% of GDP I think ), but that didn't seem to have stopped people from getting into trouble anyway. Basically these last discussions seems to be about making that a bit more clear for those that don't feel the burn.

Sending in the budgets of these nations for a review seems logical enough. If there is a post of 5% for "El Presidente's private Swiss bank-account" in it, the EU should be forced to do something about it. I also heavily doubt they could get away with direct intervention in a government's budget/economy...Primarily because I think it would become so much red-tape that it would be impossible to handle for humans in real-time. Although having a few EU-bureaucrats sitting around during these budgets to analyze the situation can't be that destructive.

I suspect one of the main reasons Cameron refused to join in on this is because of the ridiculous tax-loopholes rich foreigners and corporations have with them. All of the Russian, Chinese, Arab etc. citizens with multi-million properties didn't come there for the weather.


Also, calling Germany the 4th reich seems a bit insulting to the economic powerhouse of Europe. You'd be out in the fields digging mud already if it wasn't for the Germans ability to work hard, so cut them some slack. I don't remember much of the 80s but I don't think people were nagging the Japanese about their economic success because they were big-bads during ww2.

[Námo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhtfAO7eC4

[Námo]

Poland Protesters Blast EU Plan

Waving red-and-white Polish flags and chanting, "We want sovereignty, not the euro," the demonstrators marked the anniversary of the communist-era imposition of martial law here by decrying proposed new EU limits on state budgets as an unwarranted loss of national independence.

The protest, organized by Poland's largest opposition party, spotlights the challenges European leaders face as they try to persuade constituents to back the plans for tighter budget discipline and greater financial backing for indebted countries agreed to at a summit last week.

Earlier Tuesday, the Law and Justice party said government support for the EU proposals was "an open pursuit of limiting the independence of the Polish state."

It said Poland's sovereignty, "once threatened by servility toward Soviet authorities," is now at risk from "servility toward European powers."

Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the leader of the opposition Law and Justice party, and a former prime minister, addressed protesters gathered near the gates of the Polish president's official residence and lashed out at the government's vocal support for the EU measures.

"This undermines our status as a sovereign state, our position, our dignity," Mr. Kaczynski said. "We can't agree to this. We can't, we can't and we won't."

Without backing from at least some Law and Justice lawmakers, which now seems very unlikely, Mr. Tusk's coalition won't be able to ratify any new EU treaty in the parliament—something that under the Polish constitution requires a two-thirds majority of the lower house.

The only other legal route to ratification is a nationwide referendum. And in a country where more than half of people oppose to joining the euro zone, it could be tough for the government to persuade enough voters to back the new fiscal pact.

This battle between Poland's politicians crystallizes a debate being played out—to greater and lesser degrees—in countries across Europe. How it is resolved will determine the shape of the continent's economy for years to come.

On Tuesday, the leaders of Sweden and the Czech Republic said it was too early to count on their countries' support, which they said was impossible to predict before the particulars of the agreements were finalized. In Hungary, the parliament has yet to consider the matter.

"There are many complicated questions and we must wait for the full details before making a decision," Czech Prime Minister Petr Necas said Tuesday.

In Sweden, Finance Minister Anders Borg said, "We must continue to evaluate what it is that has been agreed. It is clear that Sweden will not enter this cooperation on the same terms as euro-zone members."

[Námo]

The Swedish peoples opinion on the Euro:

The red line shows those against joining the Euro-zone.

[Ash]

So it's been mostly against the whole time.

What's the yellow line? No opinion?

[Námo]

What's the yellow line? No opinion?

Yes, the yellow line is no opinion.

'folkomröstning om euron' = Referendum on the Euro.

'efter finanskrisen' is of course after the financial crisis.

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In Denmark you'll see a similar pattern, with a very clear majority against any new 'treaty'. The question is very rapidly becoming a major political issue; our new and very frail government is already divided on this.

BTW: this 'new treaty' is in fact a blank sheet of paper ... ridiculous.

[duke_Qa]

I've always been for a Scandinavian union, even though I suspect the economies are too different even among us for that. I do think that Norway could use some good old Swedish entrepreneurial spirit at times. Instead of basing itself on oil-based industry and paper-shuffling jobs related to the oil industry.


We got 80% who are negative to joining the EU right now, although the labor party is apparently trying to reduce the amount of votes needed in parliament to join to 2/3rds instead of 3/4ths. Not that they could join without a vote, but its unsettling that they are still focusing on it.

Our populist party gets 30% of the votes between elections, then fall down to 12-20% when the ballot is in the voters hands(they also refuse to take a stand on EU because they would "lose votes" either way. That's politics for you). Being against the EU might be popular, but once the order is to be given people tend to think about things beyond the negative. It's good that people are threatening with leaving though, because it forces them to reform

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Is it just me or has this topic morphed into another Euro topic?

[Ash]

The rise of the EU is the fall of democracy in Europe. The existence of the former is the perfect illustration of the latter.

[Námo]

Is it just me or has this topic morphed into another Euro topic?

OK, let's give it a little twist:

UK vs. France: who is worse?

The latest scandalous childish spat in Europe is not between some hardcore religious fanatics in the former Yugoslavia, but between the two countries that traditionally (at least in post-war Europe) have been at the forefront of sense and stability: France and the UK, where things got out of joint after David Cameron vetoed the recent G-27 attempt to bailout French and German banks on the taxpayer's dime, quickly followed up by a media war, and culminating with the idiotic announcement by Bank of France head Christian Noyer who said it is not France who has to be downgraded, but the UK. ... Below, courtesy of Reuters, we present a tableau of the key economic dataseries for the two countries, and benchmarked against Europe's strongest economy: Germany. So is Cameron right in saying he is protecting the UK taxpayers by keeping them isolated from the European maelstrom, or is Noyer correct when he says that the UK is far worse off? Readers decide.

[Ash]

Our inflation is a bit ridiculous though. That said I view any inflation anywhere as a ridiculous result of the cloud-cuckoo fantasy world of modern economics. Why is it that it should be a good thing that something costs 2% more next year than it does now? Especially considering my wage is likely not to increase by that same 2% in the same period.

Oh, wait, sorry. I work for a living for a living wage. I don't live in happyland, doing next to nothing of any real benefit for a salary that would pay my actual real-world wage out of pocket change, like the bankers do.

I swear, the people who run this country, whether they be in political charge or economic charge, are so out of touch with the situation in the country that they might as well be on fucking Saturn.

[Námo]

Oh, Britain has worse problems than the economy: a rampant 'entitlement-culture' based on political correctness and multiculturalism, and islamization and sharia spreading like wild-fire.

If I was living in Britain (and younger than I am now), I would definitely be on the streets with the English Defense League.