19 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6HUgrRlQ

I found this video made interesting points about elements of religion and ourselves that we don't use/think much of these days.

Modern psychology tells us that we are simply not that rational. This is why we have government, culture, laws. I think this lecture was beautiful, a wonderful counter to the smug self-assured, arrogant atheism that has had its day for too long.

I guess it points out the arrogant part of atheism/secularism, and some of the pieces of organized religion that hook up with our lizard brains in a positive way, but which we ignore/supress because it has a "history" and its more hipster to be against it in a bigoted way . I dunno, thats my initial take on it, what's yours?

[Pasidon]

Oh good... other news besides the obvious incursion of Revora's Think Tank.

Yea, I like that. I've often observed the faults of modern day religion that any Christian would ignore and see salvation instead. But I've also seen how Atheism is just as much of a poor weapon. Atheism itself is a religion, but nulled of deities... in most cases. You have the occasional Atheist devil worshiper that contradicts everything sane, but the view of those who are Atheists are most likely to oppose religion. It is the act of believing in nothing, and boldly doing so. There are some who just don't believe in anything who still call themselves Atheists, but that's also a contradiction. The Atheist wishes to see faith in gods demolished while the Christian wishes to see faith in god absolute. To covert all to Atheist would to render the world of religious values and cause chaos. To convert all to Christian would create an equal but opposite chaos... the same in terms of destroying cultures and enslaving opinion and different in terms of the result. I have enough of an opinion to write a paper on it, but I'll go on when I need too.

[OmegaBolt]

Of course there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual, the latter I think is crucial in an attempt to maintain sanity. Currently we're all about finding who we are through consumable goods, which is empty and just as evil as any monotheistic religion IMO.

[Pasidon]

I wasn't aware modern religion had anything to do with spiritual components. It's more like a conversion party with strict morals and little understanding of spiritual things.

[duke_Qa]

Well, there are enough of those around. There are some religious around that are genuinely spiritual and doesn't focus on those things.

But I guess, we that don't really believe, are not very willing to start a deep conversation with someone that we think would counter-attack with that information to convert you.

Of course there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual, the latter I think is crucial in an attempt to maintain sanity. Currently we're all about finding who we are through consumable goods, which is empty and just as evil as any monotheistic religion IMO.

Yeah, the current mentality is very consumerist, which I guess has worked fine for us for the last 50 years or so. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to live for a job or a life just based upon cash and items.

[Pasidon]

That's pretty vane... but yea, probably true'ish. We live for the market, as without out... erm... well nothing gets accomplished. If we lived in a universe that didn't have marketing, then there would only be thieving and self-subsistence. Weird universe... but that's how it would work. Have Ricky Gervais make a movie about that... "The Invention of Marketing".

And... I officially have all the recent posts in the community section. You people need to post more.

Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 23 January 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[duke_Qa]

I try to avoid posting too much since that would seem creepy


A job and family is usually more than enough for most. Just because it gives you those things does not equal love of the market.
Having work that you believe in is (imo) better than having work that you believe will pay well. Like this video("Simon Sinek: How great leaders inspire action ", posted it elsewhere) puts it: You don't want people who work for your money, but people who work for what you believe in. And I think more and more of the world has been focusing on the former, while we really should have focused more on the latter. Might be easier to get people with money, but once everyone only cares about money, the system collapses under greed.

[Pasidon]

You're getting into Andrew Ryan territory there. Let's visit pre-crazy Rapture! Throw that nasty piece of work called altruism out of the basket and let's get a society of people working to better their community and innovate the world of science. The Great Chain of Industry, and all. But all you need is one Atlas to bring down the world and break the chain. Bioshock has taught me far too much about society...

[duke_Qa]

Back to the apathic world-view of the cynical but passive victim with you then

But the Andrew Ryan utopia wasn't too bad before the resources people craved ran out. Stories like that though, they are written with a moral of sorts, western morals usually go into Frankenstein territory right off the bat. Like these caveman science-fiction stories . Science is bad after all, thats what baby jesus says

Edited by duke_Qa, 24 January 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Puppeteer]

Of course there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual, the latter I think is crucial in an attempt to maintain sanity. Currently we're all about finding who we are through consumable goods, which is empty and just as evil as any monotheistic religion IMO.

What do you mean by 'spiritual'?

[Pasidon]

Apparently it's a thing Christians say to describe their hunger to consume your religion and regurgitate a brand new one into your mouth, like a mother hawk feeding its susceptible 3rd world barbarians.

Like these caveman science-fiction stories . Science is bad after all, thats what baby jesus says

I find those blasted ''caveman'' comics insulting... Adam and Eve spoke better English than that!

... Wait, you think posting too much is too creepy? I'm being deprived of decent conversation and entertainment for the sake of your flawless reputation since it would risk degrading your respect among us? If that's the case... Ashy, you're the creepiest person on the forums and no one respects you anymore. I envy you.

[duke_Qa]

Puppeteer:

I'll let OmegaBolt define his spiritual, but for me spiritual is(right now in jan 2012):

"Attempts of mental house-cleaning/refurnishing of flawed personality traits" . It's not a "copy-paste-delete-edit right now" thing, you need to repeat and re-focus and make rituals out of it, because thats how you got them in the first place, through life experiences and the repetitions of friends and family. Being spiritual means to me that you are doing something with what that inner pessimistic voice keeps sending you while you are not telling it to shut up.

Pasidon:

That was also a definition of spirituality

I don't post more than necessary, and I don't post on threads I feel are being kept alive purely by my tenacious posting. And I don't post on threads I don't really have any interest in or interesting to say about. Basic common sense to me. If nothing new is posted around the forum and the previous rules apply, I find something else to do. If I didn't follow those rules, I'd look like some attention-grabbing kid high on caffeine 12/hours per day, and with the caffeine intake I usually maintain I'm not that far off.

[Pasidon]

Oh. You mean like this post which has no value to anything and could of been better off not posted at all?

[duke_Qa]

Exactly Jimmy.

[duke_Qa]

Hah, seems this guy is on a roll these days, now he wants to create a temple for Atheism in downdown London. I sure would visit it. And he's fighting with Dawkins, which is kinda fun too

"Building a monument acknowledges that we are more than dust. Whether we come at that through secular means or a religious narrative, it is the same game.

"This is a more constructive atheism than Dawkins, who is about the destruction of ideas rather than contributing new ones."

Edited by duke_Qa, 26 January 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Phil]

Interesting video, but I feel he (intentionally or unintentionally) mixed two things. When he talks about stuff worth taking from religion, I'd say there is the "message", i.e. the ideas, principles and rules of the belief-system, and then there's the "tactics", i.e. how you get a message out to the people and make it stick. The way I perceived it, he begins his speech talking about how there's good message that we can take from religion instead of simply rejecting it as dumb or backwards. However, he then starts focusing entirely on the tactics religion uses to spread its message.

As for the tactics, I agree that there's probably plenty of stuff that can be taken from the different religions for great effect. After all, the big world religions have had centuries to try out and refine their communication. Part of it is honest, putting the people in their quality as humans in the centre. Focusing on emotion rather than just abstract concepts. A big part, however, is also clever use of human psychology, sometimes with less, sometimes with more manipulative characteristics. I'm not generally opposed to employing stuff like sermons or group rituals when teaching morals. However, religion has an ugly tendency to suppress critical thinking and instead telling people to believe and obey. This needs to be avoided.

As for cherry-picking parts of the message, I'm not so sure. Unfortunately he didn't really give any examples on this side. I don't believe that we really need religion for a consistent set of morals, even though there are interesting concepts to be found in the different religions of this world. I think humanity would be better off on the whole if we took the plunge and abandoned religion as a source of guidance.

That said, I'm an atheist and I really like churches

[Pasidon]

They do have cool windows.

I think we're underestimating how much fun religion is to us who know better. If we dropped religion all of a sudden, we loose a certain context in the world. Religion really does separate the intellectuals, the blind and the disciplined... it would just make more individuals, and I hate it when people think they're individuals. I'd rather them be easy to manipulate and predictable in their groups rather than the opposite. Why would I want people being better than me? I'm just fine with people summing up what deities don't want them doing... gays being sad... forbidden pork... no problems as long as they don't force me to be apart of any of it. And I'd rather people be fearful of a fiery doom when they lie to me... there should be a fictional punishment for those sorts of things to keep people in their places better.

[duke_Qa]

Phil, I do love me some massive architecture too. Funny what massive surplus of money and a bit of megalomania can get you.

I do agree that his message does not point out the biggest problems with religion, but I guess that is implied through the embrace of atheism. I think we're mentally geared to consider religion a swimming pool filled with mind-numbing tricks and indoctrinating toxins, so even thinking about jumping into it for something valuable among the junk is looked upon as a psychological risk.

Critical thinking would be a very important pillar in any organization of this sort. Rituals like repetition of verses can be better put to use in learning people that repetition = remembering, and generally giving us better school-habits. There are apps around today where you put in questions that repeats over time, further and further apart, but every time you get asked the same question, the more it imprints itself into your subconscious memory bank.


Pasidon; It is how you perceive yourself that you judge others .
I know there are tons of people much better at what I do than me, but I don't begrudge them for their will and capacities to be where they are. I prefer to look up to them and be curious and humble, be able to ask the embarrassing questions and get an answer that brings you closer to their level, instead of burning bridges and lamenting the universe bias against you.

[Pasidon]

Oh, now I don't judge people for taking faith or choose to belittle them because of it. But they become just a unit of data among a million others like them, and that makes me better than them. Even atheists do the same conformity most of the time. My strategy has yet to fail me.

[duke_Qa]

I don't like defining my identity in being better than others. I could probably think/say that I'm better at 3d-modelling than you, but I haven't programmed myself to get joy out of such a statement. If I'm good enough on my own to make a living on my skills, then that's enough for me really.

Also, no matter how much you filter it down, there will always be a person that can replace you and your competence. We're so many on this planet that there will always be someone around who are more dedicated than you and will work for less than you. And that is usually a sobering thought, if not depressive.


But I guess we all have definitions of "us/them" around, so if that is specifically what you are saying here, I guess that's just human. Those situations where my "Us/them" beliefs kicks in have never been constructive though. If i find I've got a very irrational "us/them" belief lying around in my skull, I try to trap it and dissect it.

Edited by duke_Qa, 30 January 2012 - 12:19 PM.